Another one bites the dust

[Per]

What happened is tragic. I don't believe I agree with anything Charlie Kirk said, but in fairness I have not listened to much of it.
I did hear him state that Finland should not have been allowed to join Nato as they are really closer to Russia, which enraged everyone in the Baltic and Nordic regions, which is why that clip went viral here. Finland fought three wars against Russia in the 20th century alone to defend their independence and sovereignty, and innumerable ones in the centuries prior to that. His statement was deeply insulting to every Finn, and all of their neighbours (except Russia) have their back. Have they checked if Simo Häyhä was in the viscinity?

But regardless of political opinion, violence is never the answer. He was a young familyman, leaving behind a widow and two children.
These children will now grow up without their father. This is a tragedy. I hope they catch whoever did this.
And I hope this doesn't fan the flames even more in the deeply divided political landscape of the United States.

It is about time the USA does something about this. Far too many people get shot. There is no need to ban guns, but there is definitely a very strong case for sensible gun laws that would restrict access to guns from those who clearly should not have them. And people should not be allowed to bring their guns with them in public places. That way it will be harder for a shooter to get to the crime scene undetected.

This picture is a few years old, but it still paints a poignant picture. Apart from the USA, Mexico is the only country to have had more than 10 school shootings, and most have had zero. Sadly Sweden did have a school shooting (our first) in 2025 when 10 people were killed at an adult education centre.


Saw a meme with an American woman having moved to Denmark questioning why they don't have metal detectors at the schools there.
Someone had answered "we already have an ocean between us and the USA, how much more protection do we need".

[UWSaint]

But I was thinking of a much darker answer, and Dude supplies the why. If the left thinks Kirk was a fascist, then anyone on the right is a fascist. And if the decent ones whose “weapon” is civil discourse are assassinated for their “fascism,” then I fear they will get replaced by the real deal.

If that is what passes for 'decent' these days, we're doomed.

I was no fan of his, but after scrolling through his 'X' feed last night, I saw nothing constructive from him. I saw a lot of hate and division. No solutions, just fear mongering. Fascist? No. Just another extreme personality looking for clicks.

But I do agree with you that whatever replaces him will not be a kinder, more thoughtful, productive version.

....

What Kirk did with Turning Point USA is hold public Q&A's at college campuses, engaging all comers. The reason I think he was decent is that he let people speak and treated them respectfully while disagreeing and trying to persuade people to his point of view through discourse. From what I saw of him, his MO was to attack/critique/deconstruct ideas, not the people in front of him. Any disagreement will engender some tension, especially among those who cannot separate their opinions from their personhood, but I think it was a model of individual-to-individual civic dialogue in the public square.

That kind discussion can't "doom" a society. People are always going to disagree, changing hearts and minds is always a possibility. It is other forms of persuasion that can doom a society -- threats of and acts of violence, economic sanction, social isolation.

Now it may be that Kirk's ideas were bad ideas. Until yesterday, you could go to his events and engage him on those ideas.

From what I could tell, he held relatively generic christian-influenced conservative positions, and he was far less notable for the quality of his message than he was for his operation and methods. What I mean by that is I am sure that you can find others in his general intellectual space who were more insightful and better orators, but none of them built what Kirk did. He built something tangible with Turning Point USA through what might be called community organizing on the left.

No, society is "doomed" when people think that people like Kirk pose an existential threat by using the essential nonviolent tools of political freedom -- debate, engagement, organization -- to try to change people's minds, get candidates elected, etc. That's NOT an existential threat; its the feature of our political system and it is countered with better ideas and organization.

[UWSaint]

Yup, but the right are blinded by their hate and the divisiveness they have created, it’s everybody else’s fault but theirs.

So are you saying Kirk's assassination is the right's fault? Have some more kool-aid.

I've never understood the divisiveness bullshit. Divisiveness is a natural symptom of political freedom. We can disagree, so we do, disagreements divide us on the lines of the disagreement. Group A deigns to disagree with Group B, Group B cries "oh you are so divisive!" Its a pearl-clutching and necrotic lament of those too superior to be challenged, and its boring. Engage on the ideas instead.

But you know, this natural divisiveness endemic to a free people is not mutually exclusive of unity in larger domains. We might, for example, agree that we should act for the good of our fellow citizens, but just disagree as to the methods. Let's start there.

As for being blinded by hate, Dude, I am glad you can read minds. Not that is matters. Righteousness and love are equally powerful motivators, and equally capable of blinding people from the evil they do in their name.

[Cornuck]

What Kirk did with Turning Point USA is hold public Q&A's at college campuses, engaging all comers. The reason I think he was decent is that he let people speak and treated them respectfully while disagreeing and trying to persuade people to his point of view through discourse. From what I saw of him, his MO was to attack/critique/deconstruct ideas, not the people in front of him. Any disagreement will engender some tension, especially among those who cannot separate their opinions from their personhood, but I think it was a model of individual-to-individual civic dialogue in the public square.

That kind discussion can't "doom" a society. People are always going to disagree, changing hearts and minds is always a possibility. It is other forms of persuasion that can doom a society -- threats of and acts of violence, economic sanction, social isolation.

What I was referring to was his X feed. I haven't heard his debates or cared to.

Keep in mind, that he didn't exist in a vacuum. He follows in a long tradition of 'commentators' that began in the Gingrich era. Whether it's about people or policy, the goal has been to attack the other side. The left isn't immune either, of course - but there's a long history there.

What passes for commentary down here is a joke. It's all about pushing an agenda (from either side).

Today's classic is of course, the (2nd) richest man in the world posting, "The Left is the party of murder"

In the end, the murder of a media personality eclipsed yet another school shooting. Just another awful day.

[UWSaint]

\Keep in mind, that he didn't exist in a vacuum. He follows in a long tradition of 'commentators' that began in the Gingrich era. Whether it's about people or policy, the goal has been to attack the other side. The left isn't immune either, of course - but there's a long history there.

Began in the Gingrich era? How about as old as the Constitution. The debates between the Federalists and Anti-Federalists.

In defining one's position, one often contrasts it with an opponent's position, and critiques that position. Critiques are "attacks." Attacking the policy of the other side(s) is the other side of the coin of promoting your own policy because policy questions are about "good and better than." I think there's quite a difference between attacking policy and people, though people can become avatars for ideas. But generally, its attack the messenger stuff, Alinsky's rules for radicals, adopting by many on the right, and its deflection.

Don't get me wrong, political dialogue is full of ad hominem, attacks against strawmen, overgeneralizations, bad faith, etc. I'm not a fan of that, I don't find it convincing. But sometimes, we remove parts of arguments that we critique, and end up debasing those arguments to appear nothing more than ad hominem, strawmen, etc. This happens for a lot of reasons. Sometimes there's a lack of intellectual honesty. But as often, arguments don't appear in their full form (no one tweets all of the support for a position every time they post), or there isn't time (or charitableness) to fully understand them, or there is an assumed level of shared knowledge that isn't really shared. Example, somebody might tweet "Jane is a pinko commie" -- itself ad hominem -- but in another forum detailed Jane's beliefs and actions made a decent if not dispositive argument Jane's beliefs mirror communism.

There's no failsafe out of this, but I think that if we try to understand an oppositions position in good faith and try to make their arguments make sense and try to understand why they believe it is a good argument, we will deepen our understanding of one another and also the pros and cons of policy prescriptions. Put differently, there can be bull shit speakers, but there can also be bull shit listeners.

What passes for commentary down here is a joke. It's all about pushing an agenda (from either side).

I think you are right and that most commentary is a joke. But I also think there's a ton of commentary, and there are people that take ideas seriously on both sides and make good arguments for their side. If you are interested, you just need to find them.

In the end, the murder of a media personality eclipsed yet another school shooting. Just another awful day.

Yes, awful day.

[Chef Boi RD]

I’ve sampled quite a few of Kirk’s debates, I go down those kind of rabbit holes, he was an ass to be blunt. I disliked him greatly, but it still doesn’t excuse what happened to him, that was simply horrific. I’ve seen the footage as with everyone, I can only imagine what his family is going through with that footage going viral with every god damned human on the planet looking at it. I really hate sometimes what social media has devolved to, it’s pretty much what’s wrong with society now, conspiracy fucks everywhere with whacked delusional opinions based on social media bullshit, trusting nobody but grifter politicians catering to their paranoia’s, facts, records, studies, don’t mean shit anymore, why bother listening to the experts anymore, apparently it’s all fake news now depending what side of the fence your loyal to.. It’s made a mess of everyone. We ain’t making nothing great again, plain and simple. Send in the nukes, wipe us out, we are fucked, thank god it’s Friday tomorrow, I haven’t taken acid in a long time, sometimes I think I need it to set me straight again.

[Cousin Strawberry]

If you smoke a big fattie and dig into it, this has all the hallmarks of a Mossad contracted hit. The jugular kill shot being one of their go-to execution methods.

Then there is the private jet leaving SLC going 20 minutes south and somehow illegally turning off their ADSB (GPS location transmitting system) for a half hour period before turning it back on as they were en-route back to SL airport.

The tranny/LGTVBBQ nonsense etched onto the cartridge brass still in the Mauser they found stashed nearby....come on man. Wasn't that the same scapegoat type they fabricated for the trump ear shot hoax?

There were also the 2 decoys that distracted the first response from the police and security: the one dude openly walking around with a pellet gun that resembled an AR and the first guy who was acting suspicious and resisting arrest for no reason with his hands in his coat.

All very concerning.

I'm telling y'all...there are hardly any effective weapons available to Canadians any more. Go hit Cabela's/Basspro and grab a H9mm enry Homesteader pcc, a modified russian SKS and a good quality bolt action in a comfortable calibre. Then start stockpiling ammo.

There's a shiticane a comin

[Chef Boi RD]

Dude in the white was giving hand signals that are typical in military level assassination, very well coordinated.

All the while the Donny’s crew snuck in the back door and voted against the release of the Epstein files while the world was in shock, nobody noticed, impeccable timing. He is the master of distraction and diversion. The elusive Donny Trump.

[Cousin Strawberry]

The hand signals are not part of anything nefarious. A hit like this would never have someone sitting right next to him waving at someone to shoot now lol

[Chef Boi RD]

The hand signals are not part of anything nefarious. A hit like this would never have someone sitting right next to him waving at someone to shoot now lol

The shooter was the best in the business, he wasn’t worried

[5thhorseman]

Wow, the shooter was a MAGA who hated Kirk for being "too liberal".

Right-on-right violence.

[rats19]

Wow, the shooter was a MAGA who hated Kirk for being "too liberal".

Right-on-right violence.

Gotta celebrate good times !

[5thhorseman]

Wow, the shooter was a MAGA who hated Kirk for being "too liberal".

Right-on-right violence.

Gotta celebrate good times !

Nothing to celebrate, Rats. It's a tragedy however you look at it.

I don't follow US politics nearly as much anymore but I get the feeling it's a powder keg down there right now, so the last thing they need is left-on-right violence. I doubt Trump walks back any of his comments about the radical left but at least it's not a trigger anymore.

[rats19]

Wow, the shooter was a MAGA who hated Kirk for being "too liberal".

Right-on-right violence.

Where did you get this info from 5th?

From what I’ve seen it’s the polar opposite

Did you see the campus debate Kirk had with this kid a few weeks ago?

[Chef Boi RD]

Members of his family have come out and said their entire family is “MAGA”, according to the shooters grandmother.