Who Do U Want to See as Next Coach (post GM hire) of the Nucks?

[JelloPuddingPop]

So they were going through the motions and cashing cheques?

Or they turned mediocre AHL players into decent NHL depth players?

I have asked this question repeatedly over the years and no one can answer it.

"they didn't have anything to work with" - did they not have input on young players? Was the organization that compartmentalized that scouting and player development didn't talk? This is the Scooter/linemate excuse.

I'm not an expert in NHL management - but I'd say yes, they are a bit compartmentalized in that regard. Why would a group who doesn't travel to see prospects play, have any input on that? They need to trust their scouting department, and work with what they are given.

"they are heart and sole guys with phenomenal fundamentals, work ethic and character" - true, but how have they transferred that into player development?

Well to be fair. They won a championship with that player development. Those players didn't end up making a huge difference in the NHL, but they still progressed to being champions at their level.

I mentioned elsewhere, did they just go with the flow, biting their tongues the past few years as the ship took on water knowing they had the only life raft?

I guess we shall now get the answers to those questions. They make all the decisions now. No more hiding behind a lesser title. They have mostly succeeded everywhere else they have been involved. No reason to doubt this will still be the case.

[Topper]

The full integration of Abbotsford and Vancouver coaching and playing style was the oft repeated crowning glory of the incontinent geriatric. That would imply coaching, development and scouting would be talking. There is this modern ool known as video where play could be shared. Junior teams video their own games and copies can be requested. Scout's are not the cost chomping trench coat slips of yesteryear.

A simple, have a look at this guy's work, is this something you can work with? Can this kid's first step/stride/release point... Something you could work on?

As Mega has noted, he who followed the team in Abby closer than anyone else here,, that championship team was loaded with bets, not youth.

They succeeded as player's in Vancouver. The question is, what else have they done and where?

[Hockey Widow]

I doubt they had much, if any, input into player acquisition. That puts a bigger role on their heads than they had. Their role was to develop the players they were given. Just like RJ only had input into players he acquired to play for Abbey but I'm not sure how much input he had into drafting and acquiring players for Vancouver, maybe a voice but I highly doubt it was a big one.

Now having said all of that, I have no idea if they can develop NHL players, prospect. I have no idea how their drafting or player acquisition will be moving forward. I am prepared to judge them on that body of work. They may as you suggest be flops in this new role. Or they may be pretty damn good at it. But judging them from their past role is unfair since they had little to work with.

Keep in mind that development follows the players back to junior or overseas. We have yet to see if that translates into anything for us. I expect they will be doing more scouting and bring a different perspective to what is needed. Who knows if that perspective is worth shit.

[Topper]

Scouting and player development are the Research and Development departments of a hockey team. They can not be separately silo'd.

[JelloPuddingPop]

Scouting and player development are the Research and Development departments of a hockey team. They can not be separately silo'd.

The departments might be working together, but that does not mean all of the employees are.

I work with our legal team constantly, on contracts etc. But I don't work with every one of them, some I only meet in passing when in the office. Perhaps the Sedins were on the ice more, working on skills development than watching scouting videos, were as Krog was the one working with the scouts? Who knows?

I just know its not really fair to put the entire Player Development/Scouting at the feet of the Sedins, then question what did they actually do, with no real knowledge of their day-to-day.

[donlever]

They may as you suggest be flops in this new role.

It is my belief several are misreading Toppers intent/point.

He is not stating with committed emphasis that the Sedins will be "flops."

He is asking what did they do/have they done to be elevated to this role in what might be the most important half decade in Canucks team history (along the lines of real, long term fans are ceasing to give a fuck and a new give a shit base is not being generated for various reasons).

The suggestion then becomes, if we are actually serious about this, (as opposed to another maybe they will/maybe they won't unknown which is so typically Canuck) why did we not go balls to the wall and hire a guy like Gold who has been involved in the guts of/trained for the role for years, was ready, prepped, had a team in place and wanted to rock and roll?

We all admire the Sedins, agree they are committed & intelligent guys.

But they're still green in the role and, we can all agree, what they will accomplish is a complete and utter unknown.

(...there are great lawyers who are court room failures...)

We are accepting of that in a wait and see approach because we respect the twins?

Sure, fine.

But it doesn't remove the question of what are we actually doing here and what is our goal at AIG level?

This was an easy, politically safe move for ownership as it, because of who the twins are and how the City feels about them, dampens the oncoming revolt for the time being.

It "takes the heat off" if you will.

What happens now?

We shall see indeed....

[JelloPuddingPop]

He is asking what did they do/have they done to be elevated to this role in what might be the most important half decade in Canucks team history (along the lines of real, long term fans are ceasing to give a fuck and a new give a shit base is not being generated for various reasons).

Though this happens in hockey all the time, former players, elevated to roles way beyond their experience/training. Always a bit of dice roll, some sink, others win championship.

[Topper]

I just know its not really fair to put the entire Player Development/Scouting at the feet of the Sedins,

But somehow it is fair to give them benefit of the doubt and assume they did an exemplary job with near zero results.

Somehow folks here are posting that prospects weren't developed because scouting gave development shit prospects yet the Sedins say development needs to vastly improve with no mention of scouting.

question what did they actually do, with no real knowledge of their day-to-day.

How does one gain knowledge of their day to day without asking question about what they actually do?

Given how much effort was put into opening up lines of communication between Abby and Vancouver to the extent RyJo had roles in both organizations, the excuses given in support of the Sedins make little sense.

As I have said, I'm willing to see if they have just been biting their tongues under the old guard, but I see nothing from the management roles they have had after their playing days that indicates success and find it ironic that at their first press conference, they criticize the department they had prominent roles in. In my mind that does not bode well and leads to more questions as to how they earned their present roles unless they are expected to be silent figureheads.

[donlever]

He is asking what did they do/have they done to be elevated to this role in what might be the most important half decade in Canucks team history (along the lines of real, long term fans are ceasing to give a fuck and a new give a shit base is not being generated for various reasons).

Though this happens in hockey all the time, former players, elevated to roles way beyond their experience/training. Always a bit of dice roll, some sink, others win championship.

Right.

But we're talking about TFG's and their mind numbing fuck abouts and a ship being righted as opposed to other teams in the league.

Once again, AIG takes the easy way out.

[Topper]

He is asking what did they do/have they done to be elevated to this role in what might be the most important half decade in Canucks team history (along the lines of real, long term fans are ceasing to give a fuck and a new give a shit base is not being generated for various reasons).

Though this happens in hockey all the time, former players, elevated to roles way beyond their experience/training. Always a bit of dice roll, some sink, others win championship.

Right.

But we're talking about TFG's and their mind numbing fuck abouts and a ship being righted as opposed to other teams in the league.

Once again, AIG takes the easy way out.

Milking sacred cows

Again

[JelloPuddingPop]

I just know its not really fair to put the entire Player Development/Scouting at the feet of the Sedins,

But somehow it is fair to give them benefit of the doubt and assume they did an exemplary job with near zero results.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on "near zero" - as a championship isn't nothing. As mentioned. Yes they did a have a veteran roster, but their leading scorer was Karlsson, and top contributers included Bains, Sasson, Mueller, and KK - all who played games with Vancouver this year.

Somehow folks here are posting that prospects weren't developed because scouting gave development shit prospects yet the Sedins say development needs to vastly improve with no mention of scouting.

Another way of looking at their comments is that they didn't feel they had the support in development to do bigger things, and as they didn't have a say in hiring, perhaps now they will flesh out that department to their liking?

question what did they actually do, with no real knowledge of their day-to-day.

How does one gain knowledge of their day to day without asking question about what they actually do?

Given how much effort was put into opening up lines of communication between Abby and Vancouver to the extent RyJo had roles in both organizations, the excuses given in support of the Sedins make little sense.

Again, we don't know what their roles entailed completely, sure we can ask that question, and try to find out - but why would you assume they didn't do a good job, without knowing what their job was until that question is answered? They are HoF players, with great character, and are driven individuals. I think, given the correct staff, they can certainly make the Dev. dept. much better, but its not fair to say they failed, without knowing all the circumstances.

and find it ironic that at their first press conference, they criticize the department they had prominent roles in.

But did they have the capacity, funding and approval to hire further help in those roles? We don't know - and again, as mentioned earlier - perhaps from inside that department, they saw the flaws, areas that needed to be improved and are going to do so. That could be what they were saying in those comments. Just the fact that more resources need to be put into it, and two HoF players and Jason Krog weren't enough.

[JelloPuddingPop]

He is asking what did they do/have they done to be elevated to this role in what might be the most important half decade in Canucks team history (along the lines of real, long term fans are ceasing to give a fuck and a new give a shit base is not being generated for various reasons).

Though this happens in hockey all the time, former players, elevated to roles way beyond their experience/training. Always a bit of dice roll, some sink, others win championship.

Right.

But we're talking about TFG's and their mind numbing fuck abouts and a ship being righted as opposed to other teams in the league.

Once again, AIG takes the easy way out.

I see that point, but 2011. They almost crested that hill, even with TFG's as owners. I'd say luck, a stupid suspension and a goalie who's tires deflated at the worst time were the issue. Not the Sedins.

Now they are calling the shots, maybe they can finally get his Org. back to the top. None of us were questioning TFGs while the Sedins were winning Presidents Trophies.

[Cousin Strawberry]

It seems like a commonality with all Canucks related decisions comes down to cheap ownership. Other teams don't skimp on stationary and consumables like these PNE lawn parkers (and yes, failed managers and coaches constitute consumables in the NHL)

[Topper]

I see that point, but 2011. They almost crested that hill, even with TFG's as owners. I'd say luck, a stupid suspension and a goalie who's tires deflated at the worst time were the issue. Not the Sedins.

Now they are calling the shots, maybe they can finally get his Org. back to the top. None of us were questioning TFGs while the Sedins were winning Presidents Trophies.

What does 2011 have to do with the Sedins as CoPoHos?

[donlever]

I see that point, but 2011. They almost crested that hill, even with TFG's as owners. I'd say luck, a stupid suspension and a goalie who's tires deflated at the worst time were the issue. Not the Sedins.

Now they are calling the shots, maybe they can finally get his Org. back to the top. None of us were questioning TFGs while the Sedins were winning Presidents Trophies.

What does 2011 have to do with the Sedins as CoPoHos?

Yeah that but as well I disagree JPP.

There was a lot of flak thrown at that regime and the previous one as well.

(....not tough enough to stand up to the Bruins (or whomever), refusal to recognize that fact well ahead of time, poor pro scouting pre TDL in preparing for the rough and tumble rigors of the post season (it is sort of akin to Quinn misreading the league post '94 and shedding toughness and grit for the Mogilnys and Russ Courtnalls of the world) Cloutier, the ownership meddling in the Brad Richards episode (what other mucking about was there that my have cost us players conversely) horrific drafting....off the top of my head.

Look man, I am not hating on Hank and Dank, I like and respect the guys.

I hope they succeed, honestly I do.

And not for me because I truly don't give a fuck anymore and have not for along while as I'm sure you realize, but for you and Corn and rats, Cuz, Hank, Med's, the rest of the CC group, my personal friend group, my brother, the memory of my father who was a die hard, the memory of Doc and Wheels and Eddy, Skyo, Rummy et cetera.

I just waded in because 1) Toppers intent was being misread imo and I felt the need to clarify and 2) it is my opinion the Canucks would have been far better served going in the other direction....yet we didn't and the debate is right there in the open that it could all be about money and the easy way out for our ownership group.

Which none of us should be shocked by.