Just Not ready

[Madcombinepilot]

Also, not all Palestinians are Muslim. They used to be at least 20% Christians, but for some reason the Christians far more easily get asylum elsewhere, so now it's down to 3%, most of them living in Ramallah, Bethlehem and Jerusalem. But still.

"For some reason the Christians far more easily get asylum?" Perhaps it is because the Christians who escaped are more likely to meet the criteria of asylum, one of which is fear of persecution for religious reasons?

The main political party, Fatah, is secular and back when Arafat was their leader, he made a point of always attending xmas mass at the Nativity Church in Bethlehem. Sure, Hamas is an Islamistic organisation, and they are also widely recognised as a terrorist organisation. But they don't speak for the majority of Palestinians

Arafat -- no history of terrorism there.

Are you saying Hamas doesn't speak for a majority of Palestinians? I mean, at a certain level, no government leadership speaks on behalf of every citizen. Democratically elected government's have more legitimacy, I suppose, to the claim they speak on behalf of their nations. Hamas has its position due in part to an election, in part due to cancelling elections.... Though who speaks on behalf of Ukrainians? (Zelenskyy, I think). Polls are no substitutes for elections, but to the extent they provide some insight as to the perspective of the Palestinians, they show much stronger support for Hamas than Fatah, especially since October 7.

My point is not that there isn't a diversity of views among the Palestinian people or that some of the Hamas support isn't because people fear consequence for nonsupport (even if its loss of graft....), but I also don't think that we should be naive about the fact it is not a "fringe" Palestinian opinion to support October 7, Hamas, and ridding the region of jews and the State of Israel.

The Jews (and most) Christians in Gaza were forcibly removed by the Israelis when Gaza was ceded back to Hamas about 20 years ago (back when the Israelis were tired of terrorist rockets and missiles flying every few days) when the negotiated 'peace for land'. The Gazans immediately voted Hamas in the first elections. Missiles were fired at Israeli targets within a month and have continued to fly since. 2-3 rockets a month (and a few dead jews) does not the news talk about.

But yes, I raised that point earlier.. why don't the innocent civilians in get taken in by any of the surrounding Arab countries?? oh yeah, because all the surrounding countries also consider Hamas a terrorist group... and there sure as hell hasn't been any palestinians pointing out Hamas terrorists to the Israelis, not have any civilians pointed out where the rest of the hostages are either.

Again, This could all be over in a few hours if Hamas returned the captives.

[Per]

The main political party, Fatah, is secular and back when Arafat was their leader, he made a point of always attending xmas mass at the Nativity Church in Bethlehem. Sure, Hamas is an Islamistic organisation, and they are also widely recognised as a terrorist organisation. But they don't speak for the majority of Palestinians

Arafat -- no history of terrorism there.

Yeah, he started out as a terrorist, the same as Israeli presidents Begin and Shamir, who were both high ranking members of the Stern Gang and implicated in the assassinations of Lord Montgomery and UN Special Envoy Count Folke Bernadotte, who had saved hundreds if not thousands of Jews from German death camps during the final months of WW2 and was tasked with trying to help negotiate a solution acceptable for all sides regarding the partition of Palestine into one Jewish and one Arab nation.

Are you saying Hamas doesn't speak for a majority of Palestinians? I mean, at a certain level, no government leadership speaks on behalf of every citizen. Democratically elected government's have more legitimacy, I suppose, to the claim they speak on behalf of their nations. Hamas has its position due in part to an election, in part due to cancelling elections.... Though who speaks on behalf of Ukrainians? (Zelenskyy, I think). Polls are no substitutes for elections, but to the extent they provide some insight as to the perspective of the Palestinians, they show much stronger support for Hamas than Fatah, especially since October 7.

My point is not that there isn't a diversity of views among the Palestinian people or that some of the Hamas support isn't because people fear consequence for nonsupport (even if its loss of graft....), but I also don't think that we should be naive about the fact it is not a "fringe" Palestinian opinion to support October 7, Hamas, and ridding the region of jews and the State of Israel.

I don't think Hamas speaks for a majority of Palestinians. They have won elections in Gaza, but afaik never on the West Bank, where the majority of Palestinians live. It's hard to know though. Over the past few years polls have shown support for Hamas to be anywhere between 12 and 41%. At its highest shortly after the October 7th massacre, as you pointed out, but since then numbers has started to fall again.

Back in the 1990's more than two thirds of Palestinians and Israelis alike supported a two state solution with peaceful coexistence. But the roughly 30% on either side that insisted on a from-the-river-to-the-sea solution favouring their own side still managed to make that goal unreachable.

Those numbers have since dwindled on both sides. This is a link to one of the more recent polls on the matter: https://pcpsr.org/en/node/989

Yeah, it's a mess. I can understand the grievances on both sides, and I'm also shocked by the inhumanity shown by both sides.
Unfortunately I don't really see a solution with the set of leaders they have now. It looked much more promising in the 90's.

[Per]

As for the Ukrainians, yeah, it’s of course Zelensky.

He won the last presidential election by a landslide with 76% of the vote, beating the incumbent US favourite Poroshenko. There should have been elections in 2024, but since the country is at war, several millions are displaced and 20% of their territory is controlled by invading enemy forces it is not only not feasible to hold them - polling stations would become an obvious target for Russian terror bombings - but also not allowed under the Ukrainian constitution.

There is nothing weird about this. Britain did not hold parliamentary elections during WW2.

And anyway, polls indicate that if elections were hold today, more than 60% would probably vote for Zelensky.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ze ... 025-03-07/

His poll numbers were falling early on in his presidency, as voters felt he wasn’t delivering on campaign promises, but after the Russian invasion his bravery and leadership has sent the figures soaring again. Not quite as high as in the election, but pretty close.

[Tciso]

berlin-end-war-06.jpeg (183.57 KiB) Viewed 191 times

.
This is Berlin in 1945. The Nazis decided to fight to the bitter end. Palestine looks the same, because Hamas has decided they like the idea of fighting to the end as well. I think it sucks big time, but, Hamas has decided they would rather have their hatred of Jews and dead civilians instead of peace. Israel seems to have had enough and wants lasting peace, at the expense of Hamas and the civilians they surround themselves with. Lasting peace that is imposed on an enemy, like WW2 for example is very messy, but, what other options does Israel really have?

[Meds]

In order to even try to understand what is going on over there, and in any situation like this, one has to confront the complete depravity of human nature that is intrinsic to every one of us. It is nothing more than hatred that drives these people…..like a fire that is kindled by a match and sticks that then professes to a wildfire. We are all capable of this sort of thing on some level.

Overcoming this in ourselves requires an effort proportional to the intensity of the inclination. Just like any form of addiction…..you have to kill it.

Most people who consider themselves enlightened, evolved, educated, intelligent, progressive, or whatever you will, don’t like to look into the mirror and see a reflection with the potential for hate, racism, bigotry, discrimination, murder, substance addiction, theft, etc., staring back at them. But it’s there.

[Cousin Strawberry]

Once upon a time the Lebs were famous for their sammiches and the blond hash.

Look what war and strife has cost us.

Kick back, spark up and chill the fuck out Jewrewsalem. Same goes for the hatred from Palestinians. All that anger and hate is hard on the nerves