Canucks Young Guns

[Cornuck]

Combine a couple of injuries, and that he's played the most games in a season during his career - and that those games have been the most physical (even without the cheap shots) of his career - and we shouldn't be surprised that he is slowing down.

He looks tired, and I can't blame him for that. No playoffs this year give him the full summer to regroup and prepare for 2020 and a longer than 82 game schedule.

[Tciso]

The Palmu and Dahlen lack of development could be weighing on Lockwood's mind. Utica might be getting a reputation for not being the best spot for rookies. Can't really blame him for choosing college if that is his impression.

I am not buying into the "Utica can't develop players" Schtickt that is being pushed by the media. Its garbage. Start of last season, Utica had 5-6 rookies in the lineup down there as we force fed prospects into the system.

But what is the definition of success?? I would say that if your farm team fed 2-3 guys onto your roster (or could feed 2-3 guys into the roster) every year that would be an AMAZING development program. Some of those assets would obviously get turned into other assets, but I think our media has an overblown expectation of youth development. The focus seems to be on 1 or 2 guys that may or may not <ever> pan into NHL regulars ( in any position)

In the last couple years, Utica has developed:
-Virtanen
Found his game down there. #Shotgun was on his way to playing himself out of the NHL and is a prime example of needing to mature and develop the skills, ethic and character to have any kind of success in the NHL. (Not arguing his potential, or that we wanted him to be Todd 2.0, just that he made it to the NHL as a regular who contributes in the lineup in some way, and learned the basics of how to do it in Utica)
- McEwan
Got his first taste of the NHL this year, and looks to be a guy who could play an energy guy role here. He was never really on anyones "watch" list. he developed in Utica.
-Goldobin
got his 30 games down there. Learned the hypothetical direction where his own goalie played. Took Travis Green (and time) to learn what his goalies name was and if he spoke English or not.
-Joulevi
was having a monster year down there until injury hit. No doubts he would have had a great long look in the show this year if he wasn't injury. Still improved his game in Utica.
-Demko
Proved that the AHL is a good stepping stone to the NHL - even for a goalie.
-Gaudette
Up and down, played his way onto the team this year because of the Sutter injury... and made Sutter expendable July 1st. Perfect example of development and getting your shot to make the NHL
- Sautner, Brisebois, Gaunce, Boucher, etc.. all serviceable injury fill ins with some of them (not Gaunce or Boucher - they peaked in high school)still having potential to improve somewhat.
- Gadovich, Lind, Chatfield, Karlsson -- all still in development.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. 6 guys for sure that were recently developed though our minor league system (I am sure I missed some), with a whack of guys that are serviceable call ups.

The media is feeding people Goat Shit, and they are paying for it by the pound. Fans and media need to manage their expectations, and stop finding every little thin g to grind an axe on or push a personal agenda.

Sometimes players just don't work out, for whatever reason. Could be a coach, could be a personality conflict, could be a bad teammate, usually is a lack of motivation, lack of skill, or lack or character.. but its ALWAYS WAAAAYYY easier to blame the system/team/coach than the player looking at himself in the mirror.

I agree that there is much more nuance in assessing these issues than just picking one party and pointing at them as being the one at fault (both the pro and anti JB groups have been guilty of this). But just as it is easier for a player to blame the organization etc. (e.g. "I deserved a better chance") instead of looking in the mirror, so too is it easier for the organization to blame the player (e.g. "sometimes players don't want to pay their dues") instead of looking itself in the mirror. Without having a substantial amount of insider knowledge, it is pretty tough to be able to say which party is to blame or what percentage of blame should be attributed to each party.

You have listed several players who have developed from Utica in the last few years but these for the most part are not skilled high-end players (or at least have not yet proven themselves to consistently be such at an NHL level). I would submit that, if Utica does not produce a number of skilled high-end players in the relatively near future (for simplicity let's say 1-2 years), there is a problem with either:
1) the amount or quality of development taking place at Utica; or
2) the prospects that are being fed into Utica (i.e. JB's picks and trades).

You have to give Utica a big pass on #2. JB has had a lot of great pics, and our top 4 players (Horvat, Boesser, Pettersson and Hughes) all have by-passed Utica. If they all has 1 season in Utica before going to the NHL, we would not be having this discussion. Tryamkin can be thrown in there as well, as he should have played AHL, but refused to.

Regarding #1, with only 7 draft picks per year, it is still hard to fill your AHL team with enough prospects. In recent years, our 1st rounder has skipped Utica. And, as with all teams, we have a selection of guys who develop in Europe, develop in the NCAA, or who were a wild-card pick that never pan out. Throw in the Waiver issue, and it makes it even tougher for a team to be able to bring guys up and send them down as needed.

IMO, I don't worry about where guys develop, as long as the entire system the Canucks are using keeps developing players, and from what I have seen (Dahlen being an exception, I think...) the Canucks are doing a pretty good job f developing new talent.

[ESQ]

You have listed several players who have developed from Utica in the last few years but these for the most part are not skilled high-end players (or at least have not yet proven themselves to consistently be such at an NHL level).

Can you give examples of skilled, high-end players from any organization that developed in the AHL?

Marchand is the only one I could find amongst top scorers in the league, skill guys simply don't spend time on the farm. They either develop in college, overseas, or jump right to the NHL.

[SKYO]

You have listed several players who have developed from Utica in the last few years but these for the most part are not skilled high-end players (or at least have not yet proven themselves to consistently be such at an NHL level).

Can you give examples of skilled, high-end players from any organization that developed in the AHL?

Marchand is the only one I could find amongst top scorers in the league, skill guys simply don't spend time on the farm. They either develop in college, overseas, or jump right to the NHL.

And with Brackett here we are getting some good picks in college and those types just simply get their two or three years of education and hockey training at their schools, so they are generally more mentally and physically ready for the NHL pretty quick, maybe need only half a season if that in the AHL.

Euros and Russians I agree tend to develop better in the KHL and SHL for draft + 1 to 3 yrs.

It's mostly junior CHL draftee's who do better finishing their junior years and getting 1-2 years in the AHL to shake off the junior warts unless they are physically ready and fast enough to play in the NHL right away or just elite skilled.

[Topper]

Moving this to where I think it's more relevant:

Sure, but Petey is losing it.
He now, for the first time in his NHL career, has fewer points than games!

For some reason he's not shooting nearly as often as he did earlier in the season and is instead making more frequent high risk passes.

Get that Henrik out of his head.

He hasn't looked the same since the All Star game. I think he is probably just tired.

He hasn't looked the same -- understandably -- since the hatchet job on his knee. I take this as evidence in support of my position that it was unwise to let him play in the NHL before he was physically ready, especially in an atmosphere in which it was not abundantly clear to the rest of the league that any abuse of his slight body would be met with swift and savage retribution.

Then get him a bubble wrap sponsor.

[Blob Mckenzie]

The Palmu and Dahlen lack of development could be weighing on Lockwood's mind. Utica might be getting a reputation for not being the best spot for rookies. Can't really blame him for choosing college if that is his impression.

I am not buying into the "Utica can't develop players" Schtickt that is being pushed by the media. Its garbage. Start of last season, Utica had 5-6 rookies in the lineup down there as we force fed prospects into the system.

But what is the definition of success?? I would say that if your farm team fed 2-3 guys onto your roster (or could feed 2-3 guys into the roster) every year that would be an AMAZING development program. Some of those assets would obviously get turned into other assets, but I think our media has an overblown expectation of youth development. The focus seems to be on 1 or 2 guys that may or may not <ever> pan into NHL regulars ( in any position)

In the last couple years, Utica has developed:
-Virtanen
Found his game down there. #Shotgun was on his way to playing himself out of the NHL and is a prime example of needing to mature and develop the skills, ethic and character to have any kind of success in the NHL. (Not arguing his potential, or that we wanted him to be Todd 2.0, just that he made it to the NHL as a regular who contributes in the lineup in some way, and learned the basics of how to do it in Utica)
- McEwan
Got his first taste of the NHL this year, and looks to be a guy who could play an energy guy role here. He was never really on anyones "watch" list. he developed in Utica.
-Goldobin
got his 30 games down there. Learned the hypothetical direction where his own goalie played. Took Travis Green (and time) to learn what his goalies name was and if he spoke English or not.
-Joulevi
was having a monster year down there until injury hit. No doubts he would have had a great long look in the show this year if he wasn't injury. Still improved his game in Utica.
-Demko
Proved that the AHL is a good stepping stone to the NHL - even for a goalie.
-Gaudette
Up and down, played his way onto the team this year because of the Sutter injury... and made Sutter expendable July 1st. Perfect example of development and getting your shot to make the NHL
- Sautner, Brisebois, Gaunce, Boucher, etc.. all serviceable injury fill ins with some of them (not Gaunce or Boucher - they peaked in high school)still having potential to improve somewhat.
- Gadovich, Lind, Chatfield, Karlsson -- all still in development.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. 6 guys for sure that were recently developed though our minor league system (I am sure I missed some), with a whack of guys that are serviceable call ups.

The media is feeding people Goat Shit, and they are paying for it by the pound. Fans and media need to manage their expectations, and stop finding every little thin g to grind an axe on or push a personal agenda.

Sometimes players just don't work out, for whatever reason. Could be a coach, could be a personality conflict, could be a bad teammate, usually is a lack of motivation, lack of skill, or lack or character.. but its ALWAYS WAAAAYYY easier to blame the system/team/coach than the player looking at himself in the mirror.

I agree that there is much more nuance in assessing these issues than just picking one party and pointing at them as being the one at fault (both the pro and anti JB groups have been guilty of this). But just as it is easier for a player to blame the organization etc. (e.g. "I deserved a better chance") instead of looking in the mirror, so too is it easier for the organization to blame the player (e.g. "sometimes players don't want to pay their dues") instead of looking itself in the mirror. Without having a substantial amount of insider knowledge, it is pretty tough to be able to say which party is to blame or what percentage of blame should be attributed to each party.

You have listed several players who have developed from Utica in the last few years but these for the most part are not skilled high-end players (or at least have not yet proven themselves to consistently be such at an NHL level). I would submit that, if Utica does not produce a number of skilled high-end players in the relatively near future (for simplicity let's say 1-2 years), there is a problem with either:
1) the amount or quality of development taking place at Utica; or
2) the prospects that are being fed into Utica (i.e. JB's picks and trades).

You have to give Utica a big pass on #2. JB has had a lot of great pics, and our top 4 players (Horvat, Boesser, Pettersson and Hughes) all have by-passed Utica. If they all has 1 season in Utica before going to the NHL, we would not be having this discussion. Tryamkin can be thrown in there as well, as he should have played AHL, but refused to.

Regarding #1, with only 7 draft picks per year, it is still hard to fill your AHL team with enough prospects. In recent years, our 1st rounder has skipped Utica. And, as with all teams, we have a selection of guys who develop in Europe, develop in the NCAA, or who were a wild-card pick that never pan out. Throw in the Waiver issue, and it makes it even tougher for a team to be able to bring guys up and send them down as needed.

IMO, I don't worry about where guys develop, as long as the entire system the Canucks are using keeps developing players, and from what I have seen (Dahlen being an exception, I think...) the Canucks are doing a pretty good job f developing new talent.

Agree with most of this. Have to disagree about having only seven picks a season. There’s no rule against acquiring more picks and there isn’t a rule they says you must trade picks for scrubs or sweeten trades that should need no sweetener.

[Carlyee]

Moving this to where I think it's more relevant:

Sure, but Petey is losing it.
He now, for the first time in his NHL career, has fewer points than games!

For some reason he's not shooting nearly as often as he did earlier in the season and is instead making more frequent high risk passes.

Get that Henrik out of his head.

He hasn't looked the same since the All Star game. I think he is probably just tired.

He hasn't looked the same -- understandably -- since the hatchet job on his knee. I take this as evidence in support of my position that it was unwise to let him play in the NHL before he was physically ready, especially in an atmosphere in which it was not abundantly clear to the rest of the league that any abuse of his slight body would be met with swift and savage retribution.

Then get him a bubble wrap sponsor.

Johnny Hockey and Sid the Kid pulled it off. Among others.

[Cousin Strawberry]

Johnny hockey is a runt but had some assholes who drew some of the fire off of him. Beagle shoving skinny russians in a scrum isnt that big of a deterrent

[Ronning's Ghost]

And Sid the Kid was not a young man of such obviously fragile construction.

[ESQ]

And Sid the Kid was not a young man of such obviously fragile construction.

Lol Petey will play more NHL games than Crosby through his first 5 seasons.

Book it.

[Ronning's Ghost]

And Sid the Kid was not a young man of such obviously fragile construction.

Lol Petey will play more NHL games than Crosby through his first 5 seasons.

Book it.

Well, maybe. If you think things really work like this:
http://canuckscorner.com/forums/viewtop ... gh#p332162

I hope so, but I wouldn't care to bet on it.

[Strangelove]

Johnny hockey is a runt but had some assholes who drew some of the fire off of him. Beagle shoving skinny russians in a scrum isnt that big of a deterrent

Sorry, Vancouver fans don't tolerate paying the Asshole Extra, they just call them overpaid and run them out of town.

[Cousin Strawberry]

Johnny hockey is a runt but had some assholes who drew some of the fire off of him. Beagle shoving skinny russians in a scrum isnt that big of a deterrent

Sorry, Vancouver fans don't tolerate paying the Asshole Extra, they just call them overpaid and run them out of town.

Its usually better if they can play and be assholes

[Strangelove]

Johnny hockey is a runt but had some assholes who drew some of the fire off of him. Beagle shoving skinny russians in a scrum isnt that big of a deterrent

Sorry, Vancouver fans don't tolerate paying the Asshole Extra, they just call them overpaid and run them out of town.

Its usually better if they can play and be assholes

Everyone would have been fine with Gudbranson at $2M.

But they couldn't handle the Asshole Extra.

In a rebuild!

FFS we could have paid him $10M-per for the next 2 seasons

... until the point we have to be careful about the cap.

The next 2 seasons are when we needed his intimidation factor to protect the kids.

But noooooooo "He's overpaid!!! Get him out!!!"

And now the same people are complaining about not having a heavyweight.

Pettersson got elbowed in the head because Canuck fans ran their enforcer out of town.

Danny it's as if you personally elbowed Pettersson in the head, you bastard!!

[Cousin Strawberry]

I could give a fuck about his cap hit or paycheque. He was brutal at recovering pucks and moving it up the ice.

His physical game was more than adequate and i loved having him as a deterrent. Could his game have improved with a better partner? Sure...so could poo-a-lots game.