The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

[Chef Boi RD]

From the Willie D deathwatch thread:

Again - devestating no trades that set this organization back centuries

Almost ! Three and half posts without referencing the previous management group.

The trouble with citing the impact of no-trade clauses is that one of your favourite examples of a bad Gillis signing, Jason Garrison, had a no-trade clause, and was moved anyway early in Benning's tenure.

So are we just choosing to ignore here that Kesler exercised that right by only waived to one team - Anaheim? Bennings fault?

Personally, I have never before complained about the return in Kesler trade, because the circumstances were, admittedly, difficult. However, since you bring it up, let us revisit one of Benning's first tests as a GM. It was plainly clear at that point to Kesler, at least, that the Canucks' window had closed, and if he wanted to win it all, he would have to do it somewhere else. If it was clear to Kesler, arguably it should have been clear to Benning, as well. So, if Benning had a free hand in the composition of the team -- a debatable point, but so far none of his staunchest advocates have used that defence -- and it was clear the window had closed, he should have focused on a longer-term rebuild in preference to a retool-on-the-fly effort.

The defence of the Kesler trade results, at the time, was that Benning was at least showing decisiveness, and not letting the uncertainty weigh on the team. It should by now be clear to everyone, including Benning, that Canucks wins that season were an impediment to their long-term success anyway, so it was more important to focus on getting maximum return for the asset than to try to manage the team's psychological state in the short term. Benning should have played hardball with Kesler and let him sit until Kesler expanded his list of teams enough to give Benning some trading leverage, so that he could have gotten more in return.

Yes, the no-trade clause that Gillis gave Kesler made the circumstance more difficult, but since Gillis is not the GM anymore, most of the board has lost interest in debating the quality of his performance. We are interested in how well Benning is, and has been, doing. The circumstances he inherited were what they were, and we are only assessing how well he did in the circumstances. With the advantage of hindsight (a minor advantage to compensate for the fact that I am a mere hack hockey board poster, and not a high-paid NHL executive and purported hockey genius), it seems that while Benning did not completely flub the trade, he might well have done better with another approach, and the long-term rebuild that was needed from the the start of his tenure might have been farther along.

It's been said a thousand times, Benning didn't want another festering negative presence sitting in the dressing room of a player wanting out like the long drawn out Luongo situation in Kesler. They nipped it and rightfully so. Regardless, Kesler was a year away from UFA status. I guess with your option we could have just let him sit the year and walk away a free man with zero assets in return. The longer it festered the worser the return, thank you NTC

[Mickey107]

If anyone remembers, there was a rumor that Benning, on his own, wanted to make Kesler wait.
I do not know if that is true for 100%.
So, I, for one, wont attempt to rate Benning on this.
If the rumor was true and it was an order from above, (the owners and or Linden), he did OK.
I'd like to think the rumor was true and Benning wanted to make him wait...

[Topper]

Because hanging onto Luongo for two years worked so well for GMMG.

[Mickey107]

Because hanging onto Luongo for two years worked so well for GMMG.

Apples & Oranges

[Hockey Widow]

If anyone remembers, there was a rumor that Benning, on his own, wanted to make Kesler wait.
I do not know if that is true for 100%.
So, I, for one, wont attempt to rate Benning on this.
If the rumor was true and it was an order from above, (the owners and or Linden), he did OK.
I'd like to think the rumor was true and Benning wanted to make him wait...

Almost. Benning was pissed at Kesler and his agent who would call him several times a day yelling and cursing at him for not getting the trade done. Simply, they were harassing him, strategically. He said he thought long and hard about hardballing but came to the conclusion that it would create too much tension in the dressing room. He did not want a major distraction around the team. He said he ultimately realized that he was never going to get fair value for Kesler even if he expanded his list. The nature of a NTC.

So he sucked it up and pulled the trigger. He just got on the job. He could ill afford the Kesler situation hanging over him like a cloud, or hanging over a team he thought could still make the playoffs and be competitive.

[Meds]

Fair enough, and I have conceded that deception is an important tool for a GM in tough straits. But did he have to hire expensive free agents to sell the bullshit to the fans ?

Y U P

Most fans I have talked to wanted a rebuild and didn't need to see expensive FA's come in. I think Benning had to do that to sell his belief in the team to the veteran players (Twins, Edler, Miller, etc.) and to ownership.

Because...you think Kesler would have sat the whole season ?
Because...you don't think a deal was out there is Benning had more potential trading partners ?
Because.....?

Why would Kesler sit out?

Kesler would have played out his last 2 seasons and walked as a UFA, nice asset management, nice rebuild.

Kesler took a pay cut for that NTC (he also asked other players to take pay cuts).

Kesler is the kind of guy who would have taken a stand on dat dere.

Also not good to create a toxic environment for the kids during a rebuild.

Think of the children!!

Benning did the right thing IMO, it was a decent return all things considered, pull trigger, move on.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm about to join the wife in a bottle of wine...

Kesler would not have sat out, he would have created a toxic environment (already begun that process by requesting the trade), and push comes to shove Kesler would have expanded his list. I'm sure that Anaheim, LA, and SJ, would all have been a green light if they all showed interest. Given proximity to home Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington, and Detroit, would also have been considered had they been interested.

Benning was in a tough spot as the new GM coming to his first job as the top dog. He didn't screw the pooch on this situation, but he didn't handle it as well as he could have. I think his old school mentality took over and he wanted to accommodate a player and prevent the bad situation in the room. However, when Kesler dug in his heels and said "Only Anaheim.", Benning should have said, "Sorry, they aren't playing ball, I need to drive the price up, expand your list for me or stay here." Kesler, being the kind of guy you say he is, would have expanded his list because he didn't think winning was a reality in Vancouver anymore.....and he wants to win. Hell, Benning could even have told him to have his agent leak a few other teams on the list and Kesler still goes to the Ducks, but with Murray paying a higher price.

Regardless, I think Jim should get a pass on this one from both sides. At this point I feel like it was kind of a neutral move. It will be absolute shit though if Gudbranson doesn't pan out or is lost to expansion.

[Meds]

If anyone remembers, there was a rumor that Benning, on his own, wanted to make Kesler wait.
I do not know if that is true for 100%.
So, I, for one, wont attempt to rate Benning on this.
If the rumor was true and it was an order from above, (the owners and or Linden), he did OK.
I'd like to think the rumor was true and Benning wanted to make him wait...

Almost. Benning was pissed at Kesler and his agent who would call him several times a day yelling and cursing at him for not getting the trade done. Simply, they were harassing him, strategically. He said he thought long and hard about hardballing but came to the conclusion that it would create too much tension in the dressing room. He did not want a major distraction around the team. He said he ultimately realized that he was never going to get fair value for Kesler even if he expanded his list. The nature of a NTC.

If Benning didn't think this team was a legit contender when he took the reigns in 2014, then full rebuild should have been on his mind. He should have kept Kesler, let the distraction put the team into basement, and rolled the dice on the McEichel lottery that everyone knew was coming a year later. One of the strongest drafts in a long time rolls around and he could have done a lot better there. It could have been a one-year tank. Hit the bottom, get a high pick, and then the following year rebound with a young star in the mix. An intentional tank in 2014-15, and a lottery that landed us either of McDavid or Eichel would have had us looking like..... Sedin - McEichel - Horvat, down the middle in 2015-16.

And, Kesler would have waived his NTC at the deadline that year for any contender and probably seen us with another prospect and a 1st that maybe lets us snag Boeser anyhow. It's all hypothetical hindsight though lol.

[Strangelove]

Most fans I have talked to wanted a rebuild and didn't need to see expensive FA's come in. I think Benning had to do that to sell his belief in the team to the veteran players (Twins, Edler, Miller, etc.) and to ownership.

Selling it to the vets is a valid point.

I keep hearing this... "most Canuck fans wanted a rebuild" stuff... and I always want to say:

It's easy to say you want to go through a very painful process

... muuuuuch more difficult to actually go through it.

"You can't handle a rebuild"

Kesler would not have sat out, he would have created a toxic environment (already begun that process by requesting the trade), and push comes to shove Kesler would have expanded his list.

LOL oh okay!

[Strangelove]

If Benning didn't think this team was a legit contender when he took the reigns in 2014, then full rebuild should have been on his mind. He should have kept Kesler, let the distraction put the team into basement, and rolled the dice on the McEichel lottery that everyone knew was coming a year later. One of the strongest drafts in a long time rolls around and he could have done a lot better there. It could have been a one-year tank. Hit the bottom, get a high pick, and then the following year rebound with a young star in the mix. An intentional tank in 2014-15, and a lottery that landed us either of McDavid or Eichel would have had us looking like..... Sedin - McEichel - Horvat, down the middle in 2015-16.

And, Kesler would have waived his NTC at the deadline that year for any contender and probably seen us with another prospect and a 1st that maybe lets us snag Boeser anyhow. It's all hypothetical hindsight though lol.

It's all hypothetical WILD FANTASY

[Meds]

Most fans I have talked to wanted a rebuild and didn't need to see expensive FA's come in. I think Benning had to do that to sell his belief in the team to the veteran players (Twins, Edler, Miller, etc.) and to ownership.

Selling it to the vets is a valid point.

I keep hearing this... "most Canuck fans wanted a rebuild" stuff... and I always want to say:

It's easy to say you want to go through a very painful process

... muuuuuch more difficult to actually go through it.

"You can't handle a rebuild"

And yet we are going through it anyhow. The BS is nothing but a failed epidural in this case.

Kesler would not have sat out, he would have created a toxic environment (already begun that process by requesting the trade), and push comes to shove Kesler would have expanded his list.

Kesler would not have sat out, he would have created a toxic environment (already begun that process by requesting the trade), and push comes to shove Kesler would have expanded his list. I'm sure that Anaheim, LA, and SJ, would all have been a green light if they all showed interest. Given proximity to home Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington, and Detroit, would also have been considered had they been interested.

LOL oh okay!

I know it's a hard thing for you, but try not cherry picking part of something.

Kesler wanted out to go play for a contender. He thought that was Anaheim at the time, and so did many pundits. Make him stay for a couple of months and he probably starts saying OK to a couple of those other teams too.

[Meds]

If Benning didn't think this team was a legit contender when he took the reigns in 2014, then full rebuild should have been on his mind. He should have kept Kesler, let the distraction put the team into basement, and rolled the dice on the McEichel lottery that everyone knew was coming a year later. One of the strongest drafts in a long time rolls around and he could have done a lot better there. It could have been a one-year tank. Hit the bottom, get a high pick, and then the following year rebound with a young star in the mix. An intentional tank in 2014-15, and a lottery that landed us either of McDavid or Eichel would have had us looking like..... Sedin - McEichel - Horvat, down the middle in 2015-16.

And, Kesler would have waived his NTC at the deadline that year for any contender and probably seen us with another prospect and a 1st that maybe lets us snag Boeser anyhow. It's all hypothetical hindsight though lol.

It's all hypothetical WILD FANTASY

So is the majority of what we talk about round these parts. Hypotheticals, speculation, and fantasy.

[Strangelove]

So is the majority of what we talk about round these parts. Hypotheticals, speculation, and fantasy.

But you took it to a whole new level!



Also, Kess would not have expanded his trade list

... he would have withdrawn his trade request and eventually walked as a UFA.

NOW what do you do Armchair-with-a-time-machine!

[Ronning's Ghost]

Kesler would have played out his last 2 seasons and walked as a UFA, nice asset management, nice rebuild.

And, Kesler would have waived his NTC at the deadline that year for any contender and probably seen us with another prospect and a 1st that maybe lets us snag Boeser anyhow.

The longer it festered the worser the return, thank you NTC

He said he ultimately realized that he was never going to get fair value for Kesler even if he expanded his list.

So is the majority of what we talk about round these parts. Hypotheticals, speculation, and fantasy.

This is the limitation of many discussions on this board. None of us can speak with certainty on what Kesler, or other GM's around the NHL presented with the opportunity to trade for Kesler, would have done.

Regardless, I think Jim should get a pass on this one from both sides. At this point I feel like it was kind of a neutral move. It will be absolute shit though if Gudbranson doesn't pan out or is lost to expansion.

I agree. I didn't mean to imply it was an "F", just maybe somewhat short of an "A+".

Perhaps a more fruitful topic of discussion can be found in what might be a point of disagreement between two posters who seldom contradict one another:

IMO it was always "a longer-term rebuild".

The "retool-on-the-fly" bullshit was just that.

"A GM's gotta say what a GM's gotta say"

He could ill afford the Kesler situation hanging over him like a cloud, or hanging over a team he thought could still make the playoffs and be competitive.

Doc, HW, do you in fact disagree on Benning's perception of his mission in his first year?

For my part, I find Benning's actions in his first two years more consistent with a man who believed (or was instructed by his employers to act as though he believed) that a short-term turnaround was possible, and worth attempting.

[Hockey Widow]

They called it a transition from day one. Get younger, more skilled, all while staying competitive. Benning has never waivered from that. People think he's changed his mind and is now in a rebuild. Why? Because he traded Burrows and Hansen.

Do I think he miscalculated first year? No, not really. We had a good season, made the playoffs, then shit the bed. Would I have, in retrospect using 20/20 vision, have liked he went a little further in the tear down/rebuild/transition? Ya, maybe.

So much rests on the assumption we could have had McJesus or Eichle or Matthews or Laine, if only Jim had shit the bed more. But we did shit the bed last year and got bumped in the draft. So the argument fails.

Fighting for the playoffs, vets mentoring kids, solid goaltending, are never a bad thing. And ya I'd love McJesus or Eichle or Matthews or Laine. But we simply cannot assume we would have been in a better position to draft one of them.

Both Toronto and Edmonton got huge boosts to their rebuild because of one player they each drafted. Without that generational franchise type player they are not far removed from Arizona or Colorado or Buffalo or Carolina or New Jersey or.......

Benning did the right thing trading Kesler. Maybe what Benning could have done is go for picks and prospects and forgoing Sbisa and Bonino, maybe gotten that second first. But I can't see how that one extra pick could have made a difference. Doc is right, we are rebuilding and people can't stand a rebuild.

[SKYO]

Did you know the Maple leaves for Lou Lamoriello he has two Assistant GM's and an assistant.



So why can't the Canucks hire Dean Lombardi as an assistant GM or as senior advisor (demoting Stan Smyl to just director, player development).

Other GM's who have taken roles in other organizations off the top is McPhee with the Islanders as a special advisor before getting hired by vegas, and Don Maloney is a Flames scout.

DL can give more wealth of info and connections for JB/JW to help with the rebuild.
Lombardi for example could come in be like I was about deal Muzzin for so and so, so you could deal Tanev/Edler for this package.