Just What Do the Sedins Do?

[JelloPuddingPop]

Was that why Boston ultimately dealt him to Toronto?

I know that Phat Phil got that name for various reasons, but teammates of his have said in the past that he is an absolute animal in the gym. Kessel just naturally had one of those physiques where he always looks roly-poly.

Yeah, not sure why they ultimately traded him - though I'm sure Hamilton and Seguin were two big reasons why... can't remember if it was cap related, performance or off ice/dressing room stuff. Someone else might be able to add context here.

My point still stands though.

[Meds]

The Sedins, and Naslund (who I was/am a big fan of) are the quintessential examples of why I am 100% against having European on-ice leadership for my team in the NHL.

LOL, wasn't Chara a European when they won the cup against the Sedins?

Well for starters I should point out that Chara was squared off against Hank.....so I mean Euro vs Euro, Chara woulda lost had either of San Jose or Chicago eliminated the Canucks that year.

But seriously, there are obviously exceptions.....and in this case there are 5: Lidstrom, Chara, Ovechkin, Landeskog, and now Barkov.

Lidstrom's Cup is impressive in regards to this discussion, not just because he was the first, but because the leadership group other than him were Datsuyk, Zetterberg, with a periphery of Holmstrom, Franzen, and Samuelsson. That was the NHL's only Euro Cup to date lol.

Chara (who is basically hockey's Goliath) had leadership group around him that consisted of Bergeron, Krejci, Boychuk, Horton, Recchi, and to a lesser extent, Lucic and Marchand. Chara was a beast though, so I don't point that out to take anything away from him.

Ovechkin.....took him long enough. Lol. Seriously, love this player. So much passion, so much drive. But it took him a long time to realize there was hockey to be played on his goalie's side of center ice. Outside of his scoring I haven't really paid much attention to Washington.....ever.

Landeskog is the captain in Colorado, but really the Avalanche are MacKinnon's team, and they have been since he pretty much took the reins in 2018. Landeskog was given the C in 2012 and the team missed the playoffs 5 of the next 7 seasons and were out in the first round in the years they did make it. I wouldn't say that Landeskog didn't play well for their Cup run, but it was MacKinnon and Makar who led that group, and frankly, the current Avalanche group did not truly become a dominant team in the league until Nate stepped up.

Barkov is a very quiet leader, helluva player and flies way under the radar down there in Sunrise, FLA.

Take a look at the top 100 playoff scorers of all time (in terms of PPG and all with more than 50 GP). There are 20 names on that list from outside of North America. Now, when given the percentages of represented nationalities in the NHL, that isn't bad.....however the NHL is the cream of the crop when it comes to hockey around the world, so you would expect to see more equal representation than that. Even in the top-10, you have 2: Draisaitl and Rantanen. Both good players, however Draisaitl plays with McDavid (who sits 3rd overall on this list after cranking of 42 points in 25 games this year), and Rantanen plays with MacKinnon (who sits 6th on the list). It is worth noting that Jari Kurri is 11th.....and we all know whose coattails he road to scoring success.

[Meds]

Was that why Boston ultimately dealt him to Toronto?

I know that Phat Phil got that name for various reasons, but teammates of his have said in the past that he is an absolute animal in the gym. Kessel just naturally had one of those physiques where he always looks roly-poly.

Yeah, not sure why they ultimately traded him - though I'm sure Hamilton and Seguin were two big reasons why... can't remember if it was cap related, performance or off ice/dressing room stuff. Someone else might be able to add context here.

My point still stands though.

I'm not sure it does. I mean, unless you've heard that he was always out of shape in Boston, then really you are talking about a guy that Boston moved on from after he scored 36G/60P while averaging 16 min of TOI. This during some dead puck era hockey.....those are top-6 numbers. I've read that they dealt him because Boston wasn't sold on his 200-foot game, and Kessel was holding out for bigger $$$ after a solid season and a playoff run where he scored 6G/11P in 11 games. Kessel turned down several extension offers and ultimately Boston moved him to the NHL's perennial underachieving over-payer. Seguin likely was a reason as the pick they received was the 2nd OA and it was a toss up between him and Taylor Hall as to who would go first. They couldn't forecast where the 2011 pick would be, however they sure laughed their asses off on that one getting to pick in the top-10 a few weeks after winning the Cup.

[JelloPuddingPop]

Was that why Boston ultimately dealt him to Toronto?

I know that Phat Phil got that name for various reasons, but teammates of his have said in the past that he is an absolute animal in the gym. Kessel just naturally had one of those physiques where he always looks roly-poly.

Yeah, not sure why they ultimately traded him - though I'm sure Hamilton and Seguin were two big reasons why... can't remember if it was cap related, performance or off ice/dressing room stuff. Someone else might be able to add context here.

My point still stands though.

I'm not sure it does.

I've read that they dealt him because Boston wasn't sold on his 200-foot game

So what you're saying is that some of the best leaders in hockey, couldn't get a guy on their team to commit to being a better hockey player?

[Meds]

Was that why Boston ultimately dealt him to Toronto?

I know that Phat Phil got that name for various reasons, but teammates of his have said in the past that he is an absolute animal in the gym. Kessel just naturally had one of those physiques where he always looks roly-poly.

Yeah, not sure why they ultimately traded him - though I'm sure Hamilton and Seguin were two big reasons why... can't remember if it was cap related, performance or off ice/dressing room stuff. Someone else might be able to add context here.

My point still stands though.

I'm not sure it does.

I've read that they dealt him because Boston wasn't sold on his 200-foot game

So what you're saying is that some of the best leaders in hockey, couldn't get a guy on their team to commit to being a better hockey player?

No. Not saying that at all. He was coming out of his ELC, still a very young player. They had some questions about the defensive side of his game, but find me a 30 goal scoring 21 year old winger in the NHL who actually does have that dialed in. Even Bergeron (who isn't a winger) didn't grab a Selke until his 8th season. They were trying to re-sign him.....to the point that they tendered him 3 extension offers.

Do you think the Canucks would have moved on from Virtanen as quickly if he was a 35G/60P winger who piled on 1.0PPG in the playoffs? Maybe out of necessity after the sexual assault charges, but not because he wasn't defensively responsible.

[JelloPuddingPop]

Was that why Boston ultimately dealt him to Toronto?

I know that Phat Phil got that name for various reasons, but teammates of his have said in the past that he is an absolute animal in the gym. Kessel just naturally had one of those physiques where he always looks roly-poly.

Yeah, not sure why they ultimately traded him - though I'm sure Hamilton and Seguin were two big reasons why... can't remember if it was cap related, performance or off ice/dressing room stuff. Someone else might be able to add context here.

My point still stands though.

I'm not sure it does.

I've read that they dealt him because Boston wasn't sold on his 200-foot game

So what you're saying is that some of the best leaders in hockey, couldn't get a guy on their team to commit to being a better hockey player?

No. Not saying that at all. He was coming out of his ELC, still a very young player. They had some questions about the defensive side of his game, but find me a 30 goal scoring 21 year old winger in the NHL who actually does have that dialed in. Even Bergeron (who isn't a winger) didn't grab a Selke until his 8th season. They were trying to re-sign him.....to the point that they tendered him 3 extension offers.

Do you think the Canucks would have moved on from Virtanen as quickly if he was a 35G/60P winger who piled on 1.0PPG in the playoffs? Maybe out of necessity after the sexual assault charges, but not because he wasn't defensively responsible.

I think rounding back to Tops' point - is young players being "molded" by strong team leadership (abridged version) - The Bruins, who I think we can all agree had that in spades still had issues with a number of high profile players, Kessel, Seguin, Hamilton etc. And we can likely go down this route with lots of different teams, I'm just picking the Bruins for argument's sake.

Talent talks, but character walks, and it is hard for scouts to project talent, and I'd argue almost impossible to judge character. (Bo Horvat was supposed to be "leadership material" by all accounts when drafted, which I think resulted in him being drafted higher than his skill would have afforded).

Not sure the Sedins could have made Virtanen a better player, or Kokinemi, or etc. etc. etc. The reality is, the Pods draft was daft, nothing the Sedins could do here. Petey is a franchise centerman, not sure there is much they need to do here.

[Chef Boi RD]

Topper seems grumpy lately and taking things out on the Sedins. This is usually called displaced aggression. I too am getting grumpier the older I get, but at least I admit that old man disease has taken affect on my tolerance levels.

[Strangelove]

You can lead a calf to milk but you can't make it drink?

Yes, Scooter Boy has a unique opportunity under the twins.

He should be drinking it all in while he can.

He should be milking them for all they're worth!

But perhaps he yet will...

It isn't just Scooter.

Was the JuJu man collapsing in a corner the result of Sedin commitment to fitness?

Was Capitan Bo offering the JuJu man a shoulder to cry on the leadership he learned from Hank?

Goldobin flaming out. Pod spinning his wheels? Krutov Kuzmenko arriving at camp with a Bali belly.

These were all talented players who needed discipline and leadership. Hasn't that been Henrik and Dan's forte? Isn't that their role?

Yeah well, lots of lactose intolerant calves these days.

These bobby calves must be disposed of...

Having said that, I believe Pete has been suckling at Sedin teet to a certain degree

... and will do more of dat dere as he further develops.

[Strangelove]

pretty dumb...

pretty ignorant...

Take care...

(P)rikster!

[Topper]

pretty dumb...

pretty ignorant...

Take care...

(P)rikster!

separating those who read from those who shoot the messenger because they can't read the message.

[Meds]

I think rounding back to Tops' point - is young players being "molded" by strong team leadership (abridged version) - The Bruins, who I think we can all agree had that in spades still had issues with a number of high profile players, Kessel, Seguin, Hamilton etc. And we can likely go down this route with lots of different teams, I'm just picking the Bruins for argument's sake.

Talent talks, but character walks, and it is hard for scouts to project talent, and I'd argue almost impossible to judge character. (Bo Horvat was supposed to be "leadership material" by all accounts when drafted, which I think resulted in him being drafted higher than his skill would have afforded).

Not sure the Sedins could have made Virtanen a better player, or Kokinemi, or etc. etc. etc. The reality is, the Pods draft was daft, nothing the Sedins could do here. Petey is a franchise centerman, not sure there is much they need to do here.

I don't necessarily disagree. I don't think the Sedins could have made some of these guys better players. However, I also don't think the Sedins were great leaders. Certainly great example setters in terms of individual professional commitment, but despite their "legendary" competitiveness, I never saw them as leaders that alpha personalities would want to follow.

Iginla, Chara, Stevens, Lemieux, Clarke, Yzerman, Brind'Amour, Potvin, Pilote, Pronger (wore the C for one season when ANA won the Cup).....even (sorry again Corn) Messier.

None of those guys ever took shit from anyone, and they certainly didn't care about being politically correct when it came to winning. Guys got in line behind them and went to war for them. Even little guys like Yzerman were firecrackers who would never let themselves be someone's punching bag.....and their teammates wouldn't let them either.

I don't fault the Sedins for Horvat, Virtanen, Juo, etc. It isn't their job to assess a player and cut ties with a failure.

As development coaches? I haven't got much of an opinion at this point. I think this season will be very telling though in regards to Pettersson. Franlky if he doesn't bring it this year, then maybe you cut ties with him and re-evaluate if the Sedins are better suited for a different role as well.

[BladesofSteel]

Blades - their role from day one was shadow management with roles in

“The Sedins will learn and support all areas of the team's hockey operations including player evaluation, development and communication from the amateur to NHL level,” reads the release. “They will work collaboratively with Abbotsford's AHL staff and coaches, participate in amateur and pro scouting meetings and participate in planning for the Draft, Free Agency and trade deadline.”

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canu ... er-3898002

It was supposed to more than learning what Smyl does.

Exactly my point. Their primary objective was to shadow the coaches, scouting staff and management since they were brought on in '21. While their roles have evolved into more development and coaching, how do you quantify their impact on the organization with just 3 years on the job? The first year basically a shadow?

If you want to get into the later stages of their playing career... how can you possibly judge their impact on younger players while the team was led by a management group with constant turnover, no short or long term goals in place and poor drafting and development? The Sedins endured a tumultuous coaching change with Torts, a poor choice in Clipboard, on and off ice drama with Gillis, Luongo, Kesler, Benning, Ericsson, Linden, Weisbrod, Aquilini, etc. How much weight falls on the leadership of 22 and 33 when Management has absolutely no clear game plan and brings in hopeless flakes like Hodgson, Kassian, Shinkaruk, McCann, Virtanen, Goldobin, Leipsic, Gaudette, Tryamkin, Juolevi etc for them to "mentor". How many of these guys are still in the NHL? McCann, after how many stops? Does the failure of this list fall on the Sedins?

The problems circulating the organization were constant during the last 7 years of their playing careers, from ownership down. They are hockey players, not miracle workers.

[Hockey Widow]

I don't necessarily disagree. I don't think the Sedins could have made some of these guys better players. However, I also don't think the Sedins were great leaders. Certainly great example setters in terms of individual professional commitment, but despite their "legendary" competitiveness, I never saw them as leaders that alpha personalities would want to follow.

Iginla, Chara, Stevens, Lemieux, Clarke, Yzerman, Brind'Amour, Potvin, Pilote, Pronger (wore the C for one season when ANA won the Cup).....even (sorry again Corn) Messier.

None of those guys ever took shit from anyone, and they certainly didn't care about being politically correct when it came to winning. Guys got in line behind them and went to war for them. Even little guys like Yzerman were firecrackers who would never let themselves be someone's punching bag.....and their teammates wouldn't let them either.

I don't fault the Sedins for Horvat, Virtanen, Juo, etc. It isn't their job to assess a player and cut ties with a failure.

As development coaches? I haven't got much of an opinion at this point. I think this season will be very telling though in regards to Pettersson. Franlky if he doesn't bring it this year, then maybe you cut ties with him and re-evaluate if the Sedins are better suited for a different role as well.

By this logic one can assume that Hughes will turn out to be an awful captain.

[Topper]

Jello - So every one else is to blame except the guys you like.

[Aaronp18]

This is an interesting discussion for sure.

I would say that the Sedin's will definitely inspire, promote and more aptly refine hard work and dedication.

First and foremost you can't change someone, or maybe more accurately it's very rare for someone to completely alter who they are and what type of work ethic they have. So in my opinion this is where our scouts come in, they need to identify the prospects that have the skills and work ethic of which both can be refined to the NHL level.

The Sedin's definitely mastered what it takes to succeed in the NHL, they always had the hockey skills but worked to become physically strong enough and refined their physical endurance to best suit the NHL game.

There are a plethora of players even at a young age that work hard, are physically active, get bigger stronger and faster. However, the while the work ethic may be there it could very well be misplaced and not necessarily beneficial to the NHL game. We are seeing a lot more sport specific training these days for good reason.

The Sedin's were not running marathons when they were playing and training for hockey because training for long distance running doesn't give you the best results for on ice performance. Different sports and activities require different types of training for your body.

So really, this is what we should expect from the Sedin's in my opinion. Teach our players the right way to get the most out of their already engrained work ethic. The scouts identify the players who can be molded, player development refines the mold.

They would never change a guy like Jake. He decided early on he knew better than anyone else! Wasn't it his first training camp that the Canucks gave him a strict diet and workout program and he decided his dad's workout was better so they stuck with it because it had got him that far (probably poetic licensing here)? The Canucks didn't put the time and effort into researching who Virtanen was, or they thought they could polish a diamond. Either way the Sedin influence will not affect players like Jake, he never had it in him.

Their influence will be best seen on the prospects who have the work ethic and attitude that already exists but needs refined in order to get them to the next level. There are plenty of players out there who can and will benefit form this! Not all kids have parents who will send them to camps, gyms, professional trainers, or hockey academies to learn this stuff early. They'll make it through their own hard work but need the tutelage in order to become valuable NHL players.

Elias scored more goals in his rookie campaign than Daniel did until his 7th year of professional hockey (includes the lockout year). So the Sedin's were 25/26 before we started to see their best. They also always had a line-mate to work with to get better year in and year out! Who knows if they would have had anywhere near the same careers if they played apart.

Anyways, hopefully the Sedin's can take the talent and work ethic on the roster and with the prospects we have in the system to help get the best from them! This is what we need most from them and how we will get the best result from our player development program.

The world is full of people who think they work really hard but for some reason don't ever seem to succeed. Hard work is relative, until you witness the effort necessary to truly be successful at the highest levels you really don't know how hard you need to push yourself. Look at a guy like Nathan Mackinnon, there was a time he was struggling to make it to the expected elite level a #1 OA pick should be. He refined his whole life and training program to be completely dedicated to getting better!

Find the players that need to be pushed and have the desire to be better! The Sedin's will help get them where they want to be.

The players that think they're doing enough and just need the right opportunity can be sent packing with Jake.