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Strangelove wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:11 pm

ukcanuck wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:40 pm A trump supporter in bed with brexiteers, who would have guessed?

A Trump hater in bed with socialism, who would have guessed?

ukcanuck wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:40 pm How many referendums? As many as the people want indefinitely, it’s called democracy.

So they can never Leave because we'll just keep having more referendums, yeahno that's not democracy comrade.

The people have spoken, deal with it...

ukcanuck wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:40 pm What will the leavers do when Scotland has another referendum, scream that they can’t have one because it’s not democratic?

Scotland already had their referendum and voted to remain part of the UK.

They said NO to "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

The people have spoken, deal with it comrade...

ukcanuck wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:40 pm The leave side campaigned on how it would be better out of the EU but so far all that has been shown is that things are sinificantly worse out of the EU.

The leavers said the EU Would dread losing one third of its economy and would beg for a deal.

Reality? EU totally cool with fuck off UK no deal.

Patience grasshopper, they don't Leave until March 29th.

Leavers have long said short term pain for long term gain.

Everyone knew the EEE (Evil European Empire) would make things as difficult as possible

... in order to discourage other countries from leaving.

Trying to deny a Democratic people any referendum any time for any reason is by definition undemocratic. Twist it any way you like but if you had any faith in the logic and rightness of the last one you would be confident enough to put it to the test as many times as it takes.

The problem for brexiteers is they know the leave side campaigned on lies and played on people fears.

They never spoke to the possible break up of the union, they never spoke of the loss of over seas possession like the loss of Gibraltar or the falklands.

They didnt highlight how a post Leave depression could last a generation.

They did what trump is doing and what Ford did and what Speer is trying to do create a bogey man and position themselves as the solution.

It’s bullshit and political right have a shovel and using it full time.

Luckily progressives can smell what is cooking.

ukcanuck wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:04 pm

Strangelove wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:11 pm

ukcanuck wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:40 pm How many referendums? As many as the people want indefinitely

So they can never Leave because we'll just keep having more referendums, yeahno that's not democracy comrade.

The people have spoken, deal with it...

Trying to deny a Democratic people any referendum any time for any reason is by definition undemocratic. Twist it any way you like but if you had any faith in the logic and rightness of the last one you would be confident enough to put it to the test as many times as it takes [to get the result I want].

So they can never Leave because we'll just keep having more referendums, yeahno that's not democracy comrade.

The people have spoken, deal with it...

Strangelove wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:55 pm So they can never Leave because we'll just keep having more referendums, yeahno that's not democracy comrade.

The people have spoken, deal with it...

I hear what you're saying, but there are a few complications to the matter.

First of all, a matter as fundamental as this should not really be decided by a single majority in a referendum.
I like the Swedish approach better; we see this as a constitutional matter, and as such both the entry and a possibly future leaving of the EU demanded (will demand) a two thirds majority in parliament twice, with a general election in between the parliamentary votes. This grants stability to the system. I know the UK lacks a constitution, but maybe they should get one?

Secondly, no one knew what they were voting for, as there was no deal negotiated with the EU at the time - nor is there now. Thus what Brexit means was not clarified at the time, nor is it fully clear now either. A lot of people seemed to genuinely believe they could keep the free movement of goods while restricting the free movement of people, despite all other EU member states being clear about that the free movement of goods, services, capital and people is a package deal that does not allow for cherry picking. Therefor there is a strong argument to be made for allowing the public a say in accepting or rejecting the terms for leaving, once these have been established. The British courts have already ruled that parliament has this right, but many MPs feel that before they vote on the matter the people should have their say in a referendum.

Thirdly, the leave campaign lied about several aspects of what leaving would mean. Most famously about being able to spend a lot more on the NHS if the UK should leave. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 28886.html
Also by promising to take control of the borders back while simultanously promising no change of the border situation on Ireland, despite this obviously being impossible to combine.

Fourthly, there is now an ongoing investigation on whether the leave side violated electoral law by receiving large part of their funding from overseas (yes, a Russian connection is suspected). If these allegations are found to be true, the validity of the result definitely becomes questionable.

Fifthly, the UK is a union of four nations. Two of these voted to leave, two to remain. Do the English really have the right to force Scotland and Northern Ireland to leave the EU against their expressed wish to remain? A large number of Scots and Northern Irish seem to oppose this notion.

As a result of all of the above people are slowly becoming increasingly opposed to leaving.
Is it really good democracy to deny the people a second referendum if public opinion increasingly starts leaning toward remain?
https://www.channel4.com/news/major-new ... rds-remain

Is there any reason why they cannot just have a 2nd referendum?

Seems a lot more is known now that they did not know a few years ago and it would save face for a lot of politicians.

Reefer2 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:04 pm Is there any reason why they cannot just have a 2nd referendum?

Seems a lot more is known now that they did not know a few years ago and it would save face for a lot of politicians.

Do you think this is Quebec voting not to separate from Canada or BC voting no to Proportional Representation?

Strangelove wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:31 pm The people have spoken, deal with it...

Sure.

But when the product you receive is fundamentally different from the product you were sold, consumer protection laws should allow you to back out of the deal and get a full refund.

Per wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:36 pm

Strangelove wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:31 pm The people have spoken, deal with it...

Sure.

But when the product you receive is fundamentally different from the product you were sold, consumer protection laws should allow you to back out of the deal and get a full refund.

Strange just likes to argue, if you say yes he says no, if you dark he says light. It’s his MO.

Reefer2 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:28 am Strange just likes to argue, if you say yes he says no, if you dark he says light. It’s his MO.

Goosestepping stooges live in their MSM bubble munching poo and are shocked when someone presents the other side the story...

British companies apparently do not trust their government's insistence that everything will be just fine:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-46127592

Everything will be just fine...

Strangelove wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:42 pm Everything will be just fine...

As an economist, I cannot share your optimism.

This is a bungled mess.

Yet another minister leaves the British government over Brexit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46155403

Everything will be just fine...