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"America will not put up with it for much longer."

Didn't they kick Zelensky out already? What are they waiting for? Oh wait, Trump still wants the minerals but he's fucked it up now.

Per wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 11:45 am Now, the starting points for a negotiated peace should therefore be be that Russia pulls out of Ukraine, that the borders from 1991 are upheld, that Ukraine has full independence and sovereignty restored, that the kidnapped children are returned to their families, that those responsible for the war crimes are turned over to the ICC for prosecution and that Russia pays war damages.

Now, I fully understand that in the peace negotiations you may have to make compromises.
But I do not understand why you would give up any of these basic rights, that Ukraine has according to international law, before negotiations even begin.

...

So yes, an unjust peace can be worse than an unjust war. As long as Putin is stuck in Ukraine he can’t invade anyone else. And Russia’s economy is strained to the limit. The war effort now accounts for 40% of their GDP. That is not sustainable. If we stand by Ukraine, eventually Putin will be forced to accept peace on terms that are more acceptable or, as the discontent spreads in Russia, he may accidentally fall out of a window.

If we hand him a victory, he will soon be on his way either launching a new attack on Ukraine, or invading some other country.
He has to be defeated in the eyes of his people. That is the only path to a lasting peace.

You have to realize, Putin doesn’t want peace. He wants a timeout.

By starting points for peace, do you mean that's the opening volley or that these are non-negotiables? Because if its the latter, its a winner's ransom, so you have to win the war. That's the thing about all law, its only as good as your ability to enforce it, and enforcement requires either voluntary compliance or force. And the problem for Ukraine has been not enough force to win the war. I am pretty cynical about international law for this reason.

The argument that war in Ukraine fought by Ukrainians is necessary to occupy and bankrupt the Russians is a coldly rational point, Per. It has some Machiavellian merit. Put different than you have, the Ukrainians are pawns, lambs to be slaughtered for the security of the rest of Europe.

I agree that Putin wants a timeout, and that during this timeout, Russia may very well recooperate only to fight the next war. I think that we should be well aware of that -- though I think that's pretty much inevitable no matter how this ends. But this might be where we differ -- there are times of peace and times of war; peace is not necessarily the resting state of mankind. And it certainly isn't the resting place of a civilization like the Russians who constructed from empire.

There are lots of ways to increase the likelihood of peace. The best way to do it through war is have overwhelming military superiority and to defeat absolutely the enemy so that they are willing to accept any and all conditions. Ukraine doesn't have that option; its not clear that option is ever available against a nuclear power. And of course, if one attempts to secure peace through this method, those international bodies you are so fond of cry "genocide." See Israel.

I do find it amusing that when UW points out the single-mindedness of the woke subscriber that they immediately jump in on the same page and prove his point.

I do agree with Per’s take that Russia will always be a problem in regards to aggression towards Europe. But it’s not just Putin. You could defeat Russia right now and have the Russian people lay the blame at Putin’s feet…..but his replacement would likely be someone who would rally the Russian people behind his banner by saying he could do it better than Putin.

Here are 25 Ukraine press gang street abductions. Holler if you want tro see more:

https://x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1895752927991792126

Incredibly fascinating video of a man that completely lacks backbone:

https://youtu.be/xw3RFzX4AW4?si=0KY9a9IAmFZfCqmZ

[mod edit: Mark Kelly Asks Top Defense Official Nominee If Russia Invaded Ukraine, And He Cannot Respond ]

Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:13 pm Here are 25 Ukraine press gang street abductions. Holler if you want tro see more:

https://x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1895752927991792126

Per and his ilk support this as a necessity for Ukraine to win the war on behalf of the rest of Europe…..the war that the rest of Europe does not want to fight.

Mëds wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:46 pm

Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:13 pm Here are 25 Ukraine press gang street abductions. Holler if you want tro see more:

https://x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1895752927991792126

Per and his ilk support this as a necessity for Ukraine to win the war on behalf of the rest of Europe…..the war that the rest of Europe does not want to fight.

Apparently America needs to fight WW3 on their behalf Mëds.

Except that they're not interested.

Mëds/Meg, do you not think the previous administration of the USA and maybe even 1st term of DT wanted Ukraine to poke the bear? After all war = $$$. Probably not DT as he is bed with Russia.

They probably didn’t expect it to go this long. I do agree Europe has relied to long on USA and it’s time they manage their own affairs. Same as Canada.

Per wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:17 pm Incredibly fascinating video of a man that completely lacks backbone:

https://youtu.be/xw3RFzX4AW4?si=0KY9a9IAmFZfCqmZ

[mod edit: Mark Kelly Asks Top Defense Official Nominee If Russia Invaded Ukraine, And He Cannot Respond ]

I’d like to say that I’m surprised by how chicken shit the mighty red MAGA Trump fucks are when it comes to Putin but I’m not. Their “fearless” leader was given a “doctors note” for “bone spurs” so he didn’t have to go fight for his country thanks to dear ole Daddy Trump.

Mëds wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:46 pm

Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:13 pm Here are 25 Ukraine press gang street abductions. Holler if you want tro see more:

https://x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1895752927991792126

Per and his ilk support this as a necessity for Ukraine to win the war on behalf of the rest of Europe…..the war that the rest of Europe does not want to fight.

War is hell, as they say.

But yeah, it's Europe's move now. Will they send troops, or thoughts and prayers? I've never been this interested in global politics.

2Fingers wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 2:43 pm Mëds/Meg, do you not think the previous administration of the USA and maybe even 1st term of DT wanted Ukraine to poke the bear? After all war = $$$. Probably not DT as he is bed with Russia.

They probably didn’t expect it to go this long. I do agree Europe has relied to long on USA and it’s time they manage their own affairs. Same as Canada.

Absolutely.

Think about it beyond the $$$.

Russia has massively depleted their munition stockpiles and armor divisions. They’ve sent troops out like fodder to the point they brought in North Korean soldiers. Ukraine refusing to fold up like a cheap tent, which Russia figured they would, was the because of military aid being sent over from NATO countries. This depleted European stockpiles and equipment. Aside from the obvious benefit of monetary windfall for arms manufacturers, the threat of US withdrawal from the alliance has had the benefit of forcing NATO members into actually building up their own militaries. America gets to also replace some of their “donated” arms and equipment which allows them to justify modernization by branding it as replacement.

I don’t think the US will leave NATO, I think that America’s endgame was to remain the big dog in an aligned pack where even the littlest pup has teeth of their own that would-be aggressors, like China, Russia, Iran, N. Korea, etc., have to think twice about before doing anything more than rattle their sabre in the sheath.

5thhorseman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 3:34 pm

Mëds wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:46 pm

Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:13 pm Here are 25 Ukraine press gang street abductions. Holler if you want tro see more:

https://x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1895752927991792126

Per and his ilk support this as a necessity for Ukraine to win the war on behalf of the rest of Europe…..the war that the rest of Europe does not want to fight.

War is hell, as they say.

But yeah, it's Europe's move now. Will they send troops, or thoughts and prayers?

I’m sure France has a white flag or two they could send east.

Mëds wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:03 pm I do find it amusing that when UW points out the single-mindedness of the woke subscriber that they immediately jump in on the same page and prove his point.

I do agree with Per’s take that Russia will always be a problem in regards to aggression towards Europe. But it’s not just Putin. You could defeat Russia right now and have the Russian people lay the blame at Putin’s feet…..but his replacement would likely be someone who would rally the Russian people behind his banner by saying he could do it better than Putin.

Well, we don’t know that. Gorbachev was not a threat to European security. Nor was Yeltsin.
But Putin is every bit as bad as Stalin.

I believe that if we could get rid of Putin, chances of a peaceful future would increase significantly.
Unfortunately there is no opposition in Russia as all media is controlled by the Kremlin and all emerging opposition leaders have been systematically murdered. Nor is there an heir apparent, as he has been weeding those out as well.

Mëds wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:46 pm

Megaterio Llamas wrote: ↑Mon Mar 03, 2025 1:13 pm Here are 25 Ukraine press gang street abductions. Holler if you want tro see more:

https://x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1895752927991792126

Per and his ilk support this as a necessity for Ukraine to win the war on behalf of the rest of Europe…..the war that the rest of Europe does not want to fight.

Well, for the record I think we should send troops. It is unfair that Ukraine has to go it alone.
But the very least we can do is to continue to support them in their fight for freedom.

Russia could end this war today by pulling out their troops. But they won’t.

If Russia would stop fighting, that would be the end of the war.
If Ukraine would stop fighting, that would be the end of Ukraine.

Remember trump negoiated with the taliban, and excluded the Afghan government. We know how that turned out.

Next up is negotiating with the russians, and excluding the Ukraine government.

France and Britain are working with Ukraine to attempt a 'truce / cease fire' for 30 days - seems like a good place to start.