Pettersson/Miller

[Topper]

More like an Jaguar in their waste of walnut years

[UWSaint]

Your professional career is not one where you are constantly being pitted against opponents (or teammates if at practice) to compete physically to achieve dominance. I know that alpha and ego are present in every environment, but blood never runs so hot as when in a physical push/shove I taking place. Shit happens. Things get said.

As for JT…..his behaviour in the locker room is all media speculation. As Lever has pointed out, former opponent and teammate players (Keith Yandle for one) have absolutely endorsed Miller’s character. The only people calling Miller a hotheaded bad teammate are media “insiders”, fans, and (allegedly) Elias Pettersson from a beach vacation.

The speculation that more than just Petey are done with Miller is also media clickbait.

If this was Mario Lemieux, Mark Messier, or Sidney Crosby, would anyone be shitting on them and pretending that the muffin should be protected?

As for the salary…..I don’t think it’s because Petey makes more than Miller. I think it’s because he held out and his contract meant that the Canucks had to wave goodbye to a couple of warriors in Zadorov and Lindholm. This happens in pro sports all of the time, but the idea is that the player gobbling up all the cheddar plays to a level that offsets the departed. As I mentioned, Crosby was rumoured to be pissed with Malkin for holding out. Not because he begrudged his teammate more money than himself, but because he wanted to win more than be content with just his millions, and Malkin’s salary meant less money for depth.

I agree with you that we know very little about what actually is happening. I've tried to acknowledge that in my posts, and nice of you do do so while describing JT as just a red blooded competitive big swining dick guy in an environment where you gotta be that way and we should all expect that and EP40 as a puny little prissy boy (and a swede, so redundant, right Mëds?) that can't take criticism and acts as if he's been un-consensually deflowered by some harsh words.

You don't know what kind of organization I ran, but I will tell you that a large portion of it was a division filled with (mostly male) alpha and ego, the best of the best in what they did, and work that was often physical and often extremely dangerous. It was closer to what you describe professional sports to be than what you might imagine regular office life to be. Yet what caused system failures in that environment wasn't that dissimilar from other environments. Now what corrected problems required different management (a bit more old school) than what corrected problems in other divisions, but the correction had came come from leadership, not colleagues.

I love JT Miller's game when its on. But JT Miller's play has been pretty piss poor this season. I love EP40 when his game is on. But his play has been pretty piss poor this season. I've got no idea whether their personal relationship has affected their play, or the play of their teammates. But they ought to play the game better.

[donlever]

Good posting throughout UW.

EP'S play has unfortunately been pretty much piss poor for 12 - 13 months now.

The knee.

The pressure of the contract.

JT.

Miller has at least shown signs of Beast Mode beyond the piss poor irrespective of who else is in the lineup.

EP's best play was when Miller was not around for 10 games.

Pretty damning character issues suggested there.

Pretty lame indeed if enhanced effort/performance and play was truthfully associated with a coworkers absence.

Agreed on your summary....they both need to (and should be) playing better.

Ep11.6 is very, very worrisome with respect to long term team success considering contract value and tenure.

Moreso than the other guy.

[Picker of Cherries]

I still think he had an injury problem since the all star game. He was moving much slower.
He is noticeably skating better since the new year.
I think he’ll be scoring at a better pace for the rest of the season whether or not JT is traded.
They should keep them both at least until the off-season.

[donlever]

...and that's fine and may be true.

Which brings up another 8 year 11.6 million dollar concern/question.

Where do we stand wih injury history on this guy?

Honestly I don't recall but it seems consistent.

2 seasons the wrist was bugging him right?

Knee last year.

Now something else?

Does that cover it?

Is there more or am I misremembering the overall and overstating?

[Meds]

...and that's fine and may be true.

Which brings up another 8 year 11.6 million dollar concern/question.

Where do we stand wih injury history on this guy?

Honestly I don't recall but it seems consistent.

2 seasons the wrist was bugging him right?

Knee last year.

Now something else?

Does that cover it?

Is there more or am I misremembering the overall and overstating?

Do mental health issues count as injuries?

[donlever]

Ask Dude.

[Blob Mckenzie]

Well at least Miller didn't get punched out again tonight.

Poor guy probably should have been in concussion protocol.

[Meds]

I agree with you that we know very little about what actually is happening. I've tried to acknowledge that in my posts, and nice of you do do so while describing JT as just a red blooded competitive big swining dick guy in an environment where you gotta be that way and we should all expect that and EP40 as a puny little prissy boy (and a swede, so redundant, right Mëds?) that can't take criticism and acts as if he's been un-consensually deflowered by some harsh words.

You don't know what kind of organization I ran, but I will tell you that a large portion of it was a division filled with (mostly male) alpha and ego, the best of the best in what they did, and work that was often physical and often extremely dangerous. It was closer to what you describe professional sports to be than what you might imagine regular office life to be. Yet what caused system failures in that environment wasn't that dissimilar from other environments. Now what corrected problems required different management (a bit more old school) than what corrected problems in other divisions, but the correction had came come from leadership, not colleagues.

I love JT Miller's game when its on. But JT Miller's play has been pretty piss poor this season. I love EP40 when his game is on. But his play has been pretty piss poor this season. I've got no idea whether their personal relationship has affected their play, or the play of their teammates. But they ought to play the game better.

I certainly wasn't intending an insult UW. I was under the impression you are lawyer.....which I know can be a highly competitive vocation with it's own brand of high stress. Hence why I said what I said.

Not all Swedes are pussies.....but most of the Swedes I've watched in the NHL tend to wilt when the game heads to the alley. I've always been puzzled by it, they're descendants of Vikings after all.

[Ronning's Ghost]

Where do we stand wi injury history on this guy?

Honestly I don't recall but it seems consistent.

2 seasons the wrist was bugging him right?

Knee last year.

Now something else?

Does that cover it?

Is there more or am I misremembering the overall and overstating?

Someone (I don't remember who, but the statement stands pretty well on its own merits, anyway) said that if Pettersson had been 200 lbs., he'd have gone first overall. But he wasn't, so he didn't, so the Canucks got to draft him.

Now, in a way possibly analogous to Demko, we're seeing the limitations on what made them seem like draft bargains. Pettersson might not be mentally tough, and he might not be physically tough, but he's almost certainly not physically durable. There's almost no way to make a frame that gracile capable of absorbing a lot of energy -- it's just too many cases of too long a lever acting on too small a joint or stabilizing muscle. (I guess you could have some kind of mutation with disproportionately thick ligaments, but we've seen no evidence of that. Extreme flexibility could help, too, but there are limitations to that.) So, while hockey players play through injuries all the time, I have no trouble believing that Pettersson is more badly injured, for a greater proportion of his playing time, than most other centres in the League.

Continuing the theme of an automotive analogy, the Canucks drafted a Lotus* for a League that is off-road rally at best, and demolition derby at worst.

Now, with the other talents Pettersson possesses, he can still make a valuable contribution to an NHL team, but as I argued before, his limitations put some constraints on the kind of team on which he can be successful. So that does make him a more difficult player to build around than some other highly talented players, if you decide that's what you want to do.

*Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious

[Ronning's Ghost]

but most of the Swedes I've watched in the NHL tend to wilt when the game heads to the alley. I've always been puzzled by it, they're descendants of Vikings after all.

I think every young man playing hockey in Canada, and maybe the States, too, knows that if they make it to the Show, sometimes, some teams will play that way. (And if they think about why, it's because the League likes it that way, because they think it's what most of their fans want.) So there's fairly early selection amongst anybody taking it seriously for a degree of comfort with that.

I don't think the SEL is like that, and I don't think there's the same selection in Swedish minor hockey for personalities that are comfortable with that brand of hockey.

Edit: of course, we have a board expert on that, to whom I will naturally defer.

[Meds]

but most of the Swedes I've watched in the NHL tend to wilt when the game heads to the alley. I've always been puzzled by it, they're descendants of Vikings after all.

I think every young man playing hockey in Canada, and maybe the States, too, know that if they make it to the Show, sometimes, some teams will play that way. (And if they think about why, it's because the League likes it that way, because they think it's what most of their fans want.) So there's fairly early selection amongst anybody taking it seriously for a degree of comfort with that.

I don't think the SEL is like that, and I don't think there's the same selection in Swedish minor hockey for personalities that are comfortable with that brand of hockey.

Edit: of course, we have a board expert on that, to whom I will naturally defer.

Which is why I don't like it when the team I cheer for, the one that has a legacy of playoff failures, so often hitches their wagon to players like that.

[Topper]

In my professional career, I was once in an organization where every employee but the CEO reported to me directly (7 people in executive management) or indirectly (about 750 people, including at least 125 who supervised other employees or supervisors). I reported to the CEO.

My experience in bush camps of two to fifty people where you work and live together is different. You all eat together, you go to the site together, though during the day you may only interact with 1- 10 other people. End of the day, you have diner together, do your day's summary and next day planning together, relax together. Four to a tent or 20 to a bunkhouse. It is tight quarters.

We know who is pulling their weight and who is along for the ride. Riders get to know what their peers think of them pretty quick. If they don't correct their ways they drop down the pecking order quickly. Those doing steady or better work will rise. There are natural leaders within the group who may or may not be project managers. Managing the project I relay on a small group of leaders within the crew and talk privately each day to plan for the next day. It is very much a team effort.

Advise I got early in my career was to always be the first in the cookhouse for breakfast in the morning, have a seat facing the door and watch the crew come in for breakfast. You'll know who is sleeping with who, who was up late in a bottle or bong, who is ready to give it.

I started at the bottom, grunt labour but became the best of the grunt labour quickly. Now I manage the projects. Some camps are fantastic and I've made life long friends with some of the co-workers. I've had a crew of 12 that was so close knit we operated as one. Some crews never jell and it is simply a job to get through. Sometimes you end up with one asshole and whether he is a good worker or not, the rest of the group will ostracize him and make his life miserable until he leaves of his own accord. I've never seen a person fired because of personality conflicts, but I have seen people quit because they have been ostracized.

I'd be curious where the rest of the veteran leadership stands on this. Meyers and Soucy are older and have been around the league as much as Miller.

[Meds]

I'd be curious where the rest of the veteran leadership stands on this. Meyers and Soucy are older and have been around the league as much as Miller.

I think more than a few of us are curious about that. Soucy is actually only in his 6th season and has played fewer than 350 games. However, Myers (as you mentioned), Boeser, DeBrusk, and Forbort, all have played more than 500 games.....and they are silent as the grave on this.

I read this as the problem being limited to between JT and Pettersson. None of the players want to take sides only to have their buddy be the one moved out. However the idea of being Team Switzerland is also problematic when it means that 16 guys are just sitting there watching a cold war simmer to boiling between the top-2 forwards. It also suggests that it is not a new thing.

[Ronning's Ghost]

Which is why I don't like it when the team I cheer for, the one that has a legacy of playoff failures, so often hitches their wagon to players like that.

Vancouver has -- or has historically had -- two advantages to leverage with respect to Swedish players:

1) Gradin has been one of their more effective scouts, with far more hits than misses.

2) If the player is inclined to start a family, then when they look around the League, to a Swede Vancouver looks like one of the better NHL cities in which to do that. That means that when it's contract negotiation time, Vancouver has often received a "home-town" discount. Other players, as mentioned, might be more inclined to look for a more favourable tax regime, or even -- heavens forfend ! -- a chance of winning.

In the modern League, it's tough to win it all without some players outperforming their contracts. And if the team is getting a good performance to cap hit ratio out of a player, I think a good coaching and management team should be able to work around whatever limitations he has (there being few players who offer the Complete Package) with complementary players. Not suggesting EP40 is anywhere close to offering a good performance to cap hit ratio, but other Swedes have for the Canucks.