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RoyalDude wrote: ... The desire to have Kane here is just ignorant fans who don't value what goes on in the room, which some would argue is more important than what they bring on the ice.

Who dat?

sagebrush wrote:

RoyalDude wrote: ... The desire to have Kane here is just ignorant fans who don't value what goes on in the room, which some would argue is more important than what they bring on the ice.

Who dat?

Says anybody and everybody who has worked with selfish asshats before. Is this a revelation to you?

^^
So you prefer a team of nice incompetents, to one with selfish overachievers? Oversimplifications are seldom revelations.

I see an issue that's not 'black & white'. Compromise. Embrace the grey....

Asshats on a short leash can sometimes be turned into assets.


PS - This does not mean I blindly endorse the 'draft Kane campaign'. There may not be a short enough leash.

You can sort of deal with the selfish asshat in your work life if he's the one who brings production to the point where you get your bonus. I'm sure it's the same with sports teams where something important is actually on the line. (All my team sporting experience has been pretty low stakes, so in that context it was never worth letting some asshat wreck your recreational experience.)

Any offer for Kane should be contingent on the opportunity to speak to Kane, his agent, and (if permission is needed for such things) his family before the deal is consummated in an effort to determine whether:

1) He agrees his off-ice behaviour (and possibly his entire attitude and belief system) is a problem -- for him as much as everyone else -- and needs to change
2) He is committed to doing whatever it takes to make the changes, and
3) He and his family believe Vancouver is the place to do it

If you don't hear the right things, then I agree with Micky: you don't do the deal even for a 7th rounder.

If you do hear the right things, how high would others here go ? I think Sbisa + Dorsett, as has been proposed, would take genius-level negotiating skills. Contingent on a belief that he was committed to turning things around, as described above, I would go as high as Hansen + Burrows, both of whom I could imagine having value to Buffalo.

Skriko wrote:

Strangelove wrote:Sbisa + Dorsett.

seriously?

No.

RoyalDude wrote: I'm sure all of you who have held jobs have had the experience of working with asshole primadonna co-workers and probably were overjoyed and celebrated when they left or were fired. I'm sure the Jets lockeroom were all doing backflips when Kane was traded and the Sabre lockeroom would be pretty happy if he were removed. Do you think the Canuck players would be thrilled having him on board? No, I highly doubt it. Nobody likes an asshole co -worker, they do more bad to the team morale and unity than the good they bring in the field. The desire to have Kane here is just ignorant fans who don't value what goes on in the room, which some would argue is more important than what they bring on the ice.

Kane is great in "the room"... also sticks up for his teammates and is very coach-able.

Kane's problems have more to do with off-ice decision-making.

sagebrush wrote: ^^
So you prefer a team of nice incompetents, to one with selfish overachievers? Oversimplifications are seldom revelations.

Yeah, nice guys finish last.

sagebrush wrote: I see an issue that's not 'black & white'. Compromise. Embrace the grey....

sagebrush wrote: Asshats on a short leash can sometimes be turned into assets.

Yes but let's not forget assholes are often not associated with assimilation.

And that's okay.

Ronning's Ghost wrote:You can sort of deal with the selfish asshat in your work life if he's the one who brings production to the point where you get your bonus. I'm sure it's the same with sports teams where something important is actually on the line. (All my team sporting experience has been pretty low stakes, so in that context it was never worth letting some asshat wreck your recreational experience.)

Any offer for Kane should be contingent on the opportunity to speak to Kane, his agent, and (if permission is needed for such things) his family before the deal is consummated in an effort to determine whether:

1) He agrees his off-ice behaviour (and possibly his entire attitude and belief system) is a problem -- for him as much as everyone else -- and needs to change
2) He is committed to doing whatever it takes to make the changes, and
3) He and his family believe Vancouver is the place to do it

If you don't hear the right things, then I agree with Micky: you don't do the deal even for a 7th rounder.

If you do hear the right things, how high would others here go ? I think Sbisa + Dorsett, as has been proposed, would take genius-level negotiating skills. Contingent on a belief that he was committed to turning things around, as described above, I would go as high as Hansen + Burrows, both of whom I could imagine having value to Buffalo.

Nice post.

I'm sticking with my original Hansen + Sbisa proposal for "Kane on the cheap".

(my Sbisa + Dorsett suggestion was a tongue-in-cheek response to the latest Kane "update")

(at least Skyo got it)

Offence, toughness, speed, size is all upgraded by your proposal, Doc. On paper, it's a no-brainer move.

But subtracting two popular players to add a degenerate?

Risky.

Hockey Widow wrote:Darren Dreger
Darren Dreger – Verified account ‏@DarrenDreger

Bill Day says, Kane will be directed to the NHL/NHLPA Behavioral Health professionals for evaluation and counseling, if deemed necessary.
10:48 AM - 22 Jul 2016

Would this be considered Stage 1? Or because it was reported, we're in Stage 2?

Strangelove wrote:I'm sticking with my original Hansen + Sbisa proposal for "Kane on the cheap".

(my Sbisa + Dorsett suggestion was a tongue-in-cheek response to the latest Kane "update")

(at least Skyo got it)

As intriguing as the idea seems, I don't want to risk Hansen for guy that could be sent packing before he plays his first game in the Orca.

Maybe there's a conditional draft pick added in there somewhere.

BladesofSteel wrote:Offence, toughness, speed, size is all upgraded by your proposal, Doc. On paper, it's a no-brainer move.

But subtracting two popular players to add a degenerate?

Risky.

BladesofSteel wrote:

Hockey Widow wrote:Darren Dreger
Darren Dreger – Verified account ‏@DarrenDreger

Bill Day says, Kane will be directed to the NHL/NHLPA Behavioral Health professionals for evaluation and counseling, if deemed necessary.
10:48 AM - 22 Jul 2016

Would this be considered Stage 1? Or because it was reported, we're in Stage 2?

Every player that is suspended by the NHL for any reason (head-shot, steroids, wife-beating, whatever)

... is auto-referred to the NHL/NHLPA "Program for Substance Abuse and Behavioral Health".

Pretty sure Kane does not have what is commonly called a "substance-abuse problem" there BoS.

Also, Kane is by no means "a degenerate"... he's a professional athlete who does plenty of charity work.

Evander Kane is immature for his age and prone to unprofessional off-ice behavior, I'll give you that...

Thanks for the clarity on the "Program for Substance Abuse and Behavioral Health".

To date there have been no reports on substance-abuse, hopefully it stays that way.

Perhaps degenerate is a little harsh, but he has been trending towards this status, as oppose to the superstar status Buffalo had set him up to attain.

Here's hoping EK has hit rock bottom. Here's hoping the Jim is inquiring, but with extreme caution.

Strangelove wrote:

RoyalDude wrote: I'm sure all of you who have held jobs have had the experience of working with asshole primadonna co-workers and probably were overjoyed and celebrated when they left or were fired. I'm sure the Jets lockeroom were all doing backflips when Kane was traded and the Sabre lockeroom would be pretty happy if he were removed. Do you think the Canuck players would be thrilled having him on board? No, I highly doubt it. Nobody likes an asshole co -worker, they do more bad to the team morale and unity than the good they bring in the field. The desire to have Kane here is just ignorant fans who don't value what goes on in the room, which some would argue is more important than what they bring on the ice.

Kane is great in "the room"... also sticks up for his teammates and is very coach-able.

Kane's problems have more to do with off-ice decision-making.

I'm not sure all the teammates and coaches EV has had, (Atlanta/Winnipeg, Buffalo), feel that way.
It's all pretty recent history, maybe too recent for anyone to say anything derogatory, yet.
Also; Players can be influenced negatively or positively during OFF-ICE activities as well as on-ice ones...

Ya it's not substance abuse. Rypen was also referred to the same program several times. Remember all the hush hush mystery. It was obviously for his depression and suicidal ideation. It was never reported. Until his death.

Seems to me the only time it becomes public is if it is stage two substance abuse but not sure why, unless it's the stigma of mental health problems outside of substance abuse that is. Very surprised this has been made public too.

This could be an example of damage control through the media. Could be to soften the impact of the non criminal charges. Who knows but it is rare for something like this to be made public and yes I guess it could mean it's not his first time but I don't know that.

Whatever it means I hope for his sake there is some sincerity about wanting to deal with his off ice issues.

I think from a team perspective it means they have the right to suspend for non compliance? So there could be some contractual reasons.