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As a goal scorer Kessel is the type of player you want as a complimentary player, not as the key player to build a team around. He would have been great to have around when we needed scoring to compliment the rest of the team. But he is not leadership material and not a franchise type player.

That's the main point I think in all of this. The Bruins understood this which is why they leaped at the BB offer. They were thrilled to get the first round picks, what they did with them after that is not relevant to the discussion. They converted a good young scorer who did not have leadership skills nor was he a franchise player, into two great young assets.

I would love to have Kessel on the Canucks second line at 5-6 million per, which is what he is worth but then again we see how many silly contracts are out there. The other point in all of this was that BB calculated, quite wrongly, that the addition of Kessel would make them a playoff team and a building block to becoming a contender. He didn't bank on being a lottery team and losing such high picks. If he had for seen that it is highly unlikely he does that deal. Which by the way, is what the hockey world as saying at the time. Sure, give up those picks for a Kessel type, but at the right time in the team development. It was the wrong player at the wrong time. If the leaves were on the verge of becoming a contender then it would have been the right move. As it is that move set the franchise back 10 years.

If Kessel hoists a cup with the leaves before his contract expires then he will prove us all, except the fish, wrong.

Hockey Widow wrote:As a goal scorer Kessel is the type of player you want as a complimentary player, not as the key player to build a team around. He would have been great to have around when we needed scoring to compliment the rest of the team. But he is not leadership material and not a franchise type player.

That's the main point I think in all of this. The Bruins understood this which is why they leaped at the BB offer. They were thrilled to get the first round picks, what they did with them after that is not relevant to the discussion. They converted a good young scorer who did not have leadership skills nor was he a franchise player, into two great young assets.

This is a good point.....I think that Kessel has all the skill required to be a franchise player, he just lacks the heart and attitude. The leaves literally have 2 of the worst "top players" at their positions when it comes down to it. Kessel and Phaneuf. Neither of them are franchise guys, but they are being paid like they are. Kessel doesn't have the attitude and Phaneuf lacks the brains.

HW wrote: I would love to have Kessel on the Canucks second line at 5-6 million per, which is what he is worth but then again we see how many silly contracts are out there. The other point in all of this was that BB calculated, quite wrongly, that the addition of Kessel would make them a playoff team and a building block to becoming a contender. He didn't bank on being a lottery team and losing such high picks. If he had for seen that it is highly unlikely he does that deal. Which by the way, is what the hockey world as saying at the time. Sure, give up those picks for a Kessel type, but at the right time in the team development. It was the wrong player at the wrong time. If the leaves were on the verge of becoming a contender then it would have been the right move. As it is that move set the franchise back 10 years.

Kessel has been putting up top 3 numbers for the last 3 seasons. He's streak prone, and not much of a team guy when it comes to playing in all 3 zones, but you can't question the numbers. Saying he's worth $5M-$6M is a low-ball assessment. He's worth $6.5M easily if you base this on scoring alone, probably $7M.

He has never had a real center to play with in Toronto, and who knows, maybe that has diminished his value and his attitude as well. We all saw how Kesler responded to several years of being a top forward while management failed to get him any legitimate linemates to play with.

You are right about Burke's mistake in building around him. There are very few wingers in the league that a team should build around. I can't think of many at all right now that have ever been true franchise players when playing without legitimate top 3 linemates. Franchise players are generally considered to be centers, stud defensemen, and goaltenders. Wingers are generally players who finish plays and don't have the acumen to be a force in all 3 zones.

HW wrote: If Kessel hoists a cup with the leaves before his contract expires then he will prove us all, except the fish, wrong.

Nah. Even if the leaves do hoist a cup with Kessel, he won't be the leader on that team if/when they do. He will be a top scorer, but it will be another player who leads them there. The only thing it will prove is that Kessel couldn't do it alone.....think Scottie Pippen.

^^^^
That Mëds, was a good response! Betamax could learn from this

Hockey Widow wrote:As a goal scorer Kessel is the type of player you want as a complimentary player, not as the key player to build a team around. He would have been great to have around when we needed scoring to compliment the rest of the team. But he is not leadership material and not a franchise type player.

That's the main point I think in all of this. The Bruins understood this which is why they leaped at the BB offer. They were thrilled to get the first round picks, what they did with them after that is not relevant to the discussion. They converted a good young scorer who did not have leadership skills nor was he a franchise player, into two great young assets.

I would love to have Kessel on the Canucks second line at 5-6 million per, which is what he is worth but then again we see how many silly contracts are out there. The other point in all of this was that BB calculated, quite wrongly, that the addition of Kessel would make them a playoff team and a building block to becoming a contender. He didn't bank on being a lottery team and losing such high picks. If he had for seen that it is highly unlikely he does that deal. Which by the way, is what the hockey world as saying at the time. Sure, give up those picks for a Kessel type, but at the right time in the team development. It was the wrong player at the wrong time. If the leaves were on the verge of becoming a contender then it would have been the right move. As it is that move set the franchise back 10 years.

If Kessel hoists a cup with the leaves before his contract expires then he will prove us all, except the fish, wrong.

He's a PPG player in his prime and you think he's worth 5-6 million? LOL. There's third liners earning that. Second only to Giroux in points the last 3 seasons. a PPG player with Bozak but he's so overpaid at 8 million per. He's outscoring your Sedins now.

And BTW, Kessel isn't just a "Goal Scorer" he has amongst the most assists of any player the past two seasons. You're selling him short by saying he just scores goals. And please show me what "Complimentary Player" puts up Kessel's stats? There are NONE.

Top scoring wingers were getting 8 million years ago with a lower cap.

And not having Seguin and Hamilton set them back 10 years? Seriously? If they had no Kessel and Hamilton+Seguin you think they're so much better? They might not even have Morgan Rielly, who knows. And he's more talented than Hamilton (But of course he's a Leaf, so he's not a "Building Block).

Mëds wrote:

BigTuna wrote: He's played 8 years, not 14. And the Bruins were making the playoff with him every year.

Yup. Every year. All 2 of them.

And he was a 0.56 ppg average for the Bruins over those 3 seasons.....wait a second.....did I say 3 seasons? But Kessel only recorded playoff games played in 2 of those 3 seasons. Oh that's right, the Bruins failed to qualify for the playoffs in 2006-07. And Kessel played 70 games for them that year!!!!!

Yeah.....so Kessel was an integral cog in that there Boston Bruin machine. They traded him after they were ousted in the semi-finals in 2008-09. They got the same results in 2009-10. Then won the Stanley Cup in 2010-11.

I tell ya, that there Phil Kessel was the engine driving the Bruins playoff hopes, he was the one keeping them in the race.

You mean the seasons he was a teenager and had cancer? You're the one who claimed they traded him because they weren't successful. They thought the exact same of Tyler Seguin.

I forgot he had cancer, that's a point in the pro column.

lol tuna I admire your loyalty, but bottom line is phat Phil is phat Phil because he wears Rob Ford blue and it says canuckscorner on the top left of your screen.

da guy is a bum

Yeah Phil was a good cherrypicking goalscorer.

But there's no excuse for that kind of ballessness.

I speak of him in the past tense because I don't think he will pass the physical this season.

BigTuna wrote:

Mëds wrote:

BigTuna wrote: He's played 8 years, not 14. And the Bruins were making the playoff with him every year.

Yup. Every year. All 2 of them.

And he was a 0.56 ppg average for the Bruins over those 3 seasons.....wait a second.....did I say 3 seasons? But Kessel only recorded playoff games played in 2 of those 3 seasons. Oh that's right, the Bruins failed to qualify for the playoffs in 2006-07. And Kessel played 70 games for them that year!!!!!

Yeah.....so Kessel was an integral cog in that there Boston Bruin machine. They traded him after they were ousted in the semi-finals in 2008-09. They got the same results in 2009-10. Then won the Stanley Cup in 2010-11.

I tell ya, that there Phil Kessel was the engine driving the Bruins playoff hopes, he was the one keeping them in the race.

You mean the seasons he was a teenager and had cancer? You're the one who claimed they traded him because they weren't successful. They thought the exact same of Tyler Seguin.

Where did I claim they traded him because they weren't successful?

YOU said they were making the playoffs with him every year.....like wow.....a whole 2 seasons where he was putting up 3rd line numbers.

My point was that they traded him after they were ousted in the 2nd round and that they didn't miss a beat. Kessel meant nothing to the Bruins success while he was with them, and he meant very little to their success in the future outside of Seguin and Hamilton's contributions.....the merits of which are still somewhat up for debate.

So I don't even bother getting into the "who won the Kessel trade" nonsense, because really, who cares? Boston dumped his ass to Toronto and won a Cup 2 years later. The impact of the Kessel trade on that was not exactly earth shattering.

Consider this though when thinking about how much Kessel is worth......

Kessel is a pure goal scorer. He doesn't bring much of anything else to the table. He gets $8M for that.

Kessel has played a grand total of 7 playoff games since he became the defacto top winger on his team. He is a career minus-41, he doesn't kill penalties, and he sure doesn't hit. He has won an Olympic Silver Medal, and a pair of International junior medals (Silver and Gold). He hasn't won anything of note at the professional level.

Jeff Carter has been lumped into the category of a one-trick pony goal scorer by several talking heads. He gets $5.2M for that. He has been badly mislabeled by those who consider him to be nothing more than just a goal scoring forward.

Carter has been a key contributor at every level.....and by key contributor I mean that he has been a big part of his teams winning it all. WJC Gold. Olympic Gold. Calder Cup. 2 Stanley Cups. He plays with an edge, he goes to the dirty areas, he checks, he wins faceoffs, he plays on all special teams. 111 playoff games under his belt and a career plus-47.

Considering that Carter is not considered to be a franchise player for any of his teams, and Kessel is the forward Toronto is building around, one has to wonder what the fuck TML fans and management are smoking.

It also begs the question: Why do you think Kessel is so valuable and worthy of his $8M?

Jeff Carter has an 11 year contract. His cap hit would be far higher if he signed it today. Apples and oranges. Rick Nash gets 8 million. Why not compare him? You're cherry-picking.

Why is Kessel worth 8 million? Statistics. That's what you throw at a team to get your deal. You can't dispute it. Only Giroux has scored more than Kessel the past 3 years. (That's overall points, not just goals).

And stop the "Pure Goal Scorer who doesn't do anything else" nonsense. Kessel is an elite passer and one of the top assists getters the past couple of seasons. To say he's worth 5-6 million in 2014 is absolutely laughable. He has scored a lot more than Jeff Carter has recently. In fact, while Carter had a great year, he hasn't been consistently a top forward at all. Philly dump him for drinking, his first year in L.A they won the cup and he did not play well at all. Phil has been much more consistent. In fact, you can talk about Carter in the Olympics, but Phil Kessel was the best forward at the Olympics.

Kessel signed his deal in much more recent circumstances with Patrick Kane. He gets 10.5 million. Kessel gets 8 million no issues there.
Jeff Carter is not considered a franchise player? Neither is Phil Kessel. have you heard the criticism this guy gets?

And are the leaves truly building around Phil Kessel? What about Bernier, Rielly, Nylander, Phaneuf, JVR, Kadri?

You guys are really lowballing Phil here IMO.

I mean even a one-balled Phil Kessel has more balls and more finish than a two-balled yet nutless Daniel Sedin.

And they make close to the same dough.

But yeah, this is riveting stuff guys. Can't get enough leaves talk on this site.

*sits back with popcorn to read the Mëds vs. Tuna summer novel, thinks better of it and heads outside*

BigTuna wrote: Jeff Carter has an 11 year contract. His cap hit would be far higher if he signed it today. Apples and oranges. Rick Nash gets 8 million. Why not compare him? You're cherry-picking.

I'm not cherry-picking at all. This discussion is about Kessel, and why would I compare him to Nash? Nash and Kessel are both overpaid, although Nash seems to be coming around somewhat when it comes to being a 3 zone player. I'm chose Carter because I have heard both him and Kessel referred to as one-trick ponies (goal scorers).

Tuna wrote: Why is Kessel worth 8 million? Statistics. That's what you throw at a team to get your deal. You can't dispute it. Only Giroux has scored more than Kessel the past 3 years. (That's overall points, not just goals).

Overall points is a Mickey Mouse stat when trying to prove a players worth based purely on statistics, especially when comparing him to other players. Try points per game played. A little better picture there because it takes into account injuries and suspensions. Big deal, Kessel outscored Stamkos this year.....he also played 45 more games. So saying he's scored more points than anyone other than Giroux over the last 3 seasons means nothing really. But Kessel's P/G has seen him drop over the last 3 years. 6th - 11th - 22nd.

Tuna wrote: And stop the "Pure Goal Scorer who doesn't do anything else" nonsense. Kessel is an elite passer and one of the top assists getters the past couple of seasons. To say he's worth 5-6 million in 2014 is absolutely laughable. He has scored a lot more than Jeff Carter has recently. In fact, while Carter had a great year, he hasn't been consistently a top forward at all. Philly dump him for drinking, his first year in L.A they won the cup and he did not play well at all. Phil has been much more consistent. In fact, you can talk about Carter in the Olympics, but Phil Kessel was the best forward at the Olympics.

Define "one of the top assist getters" please. He hasn't been top-15 in the league in that department during the last few years. 17th, 17th, 22nd.

I also never said he's only worth $5M-$6M. I said that was a low-ball assessment. I would say $7.5M at a max, but $7M is reasonable for his stats alone.

He's scored more than Carter because he's playing for a team that doesn't even remember that they have a defensive zone. Carter is playing a 200 foot game compared to Kessel's 100 foot showings.

As for Carter in LA's first Cup run. You say he didn't play well at all.....I say that 13 points in 20 games on a defense-first team is pretty good. I say that being tied on your team for most goals scored is even better. I also say that being tied for most team GWG's in that playoff run is something that speaks volumes.

And good point about the Olympics. Kessel was the best forward at the Olympics.....and his team didn't win a damned thing. In fact they were bounced before the medal rounds even began. But again.....pure offense and nothing doing when it comes time to help out south of center ice.

Tuna wrote: Kessel signed his deal in much more recent circumstances with Patrick Kane. He gets 10.5 million. Kessel gets 8 million no issues there.

Jeff Carter is not considered a franchise player? Neither is Phil Kessel. have you heard the criticism this guy gets?

And are the leaves truly building around Phil Kessel? What about Bernier, Rielly, Nylander, Phaneuf, JVR, Kadri?

Kane and Toews are also overpaid. Watch what happens to the Blackhawks down the road, they only have 6 players locked up beyond 2 years from now. Sure they can try and move a player or two out to clear cap, but who? Sharp is about their only option. Nobody will take Bickell at $4M. They can do well now if they manage to find a taker for Hossa.....but who wants that contract in another year or two when Hossa is 37 or 38.

Generally speaking your top paid forward is the guy you are building your franchise around. He's either your franchise guy, or you don't overpay him like that. Have you heard the Kessel praises that CBC sings on HNiC? In 2013 they were still talking about Kessel during the conference finals.....and he didn't even do anything special in the 7 games the leaves played. Only one of his goals was timely in that it closed the gap for the leaves early in the 2nd period.....but yeah, good call, give the guy franchise money when he can't break open a game and be a difference maker.

Oh, and I know Carter isn't a franchise player. That was my original point.

Btw Tuna, why is it that the only season that Kessel has been able to put up better than 1.0 P/G was in a, 48 game, shortened season?

A few remarks:

Nash is not "Coming Around" at all. He's playing the worst hockey of his career. He was terrible in the playoffs.

And HNIC has mocked Kessel a lot. So praising him once hardly proves anything.

Kessel had 2 game winners, and 6 points in 7 games in the playoffs for the leaves. He has 13 goals, 21 points in 22 playoff games.
The "200 Foot" game is such a lame argument for Jeff Carter. Do you think the league's top scorers don't play that?

"Overall Points is a Mickey Mouse Stat". LOL That's a classic.

Kessel has been PPG in an 82 game schedule BTW.

And to correct you, Kessel was top 5 in assists in 2013'. You are incorrect.

And being healthy is an important part to a player's worth to a team.

If you guys are going to continue on with this, start a new thread.

Or a least crop the quotes . What a fucking mess that is to read

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Or a least crop the quotes . What a fucking mess that is to read

You read it?