US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20 *AND* 22 *AND* 24 *AND* Beyond

[Cousin Strawberry]

Btw, in America toddlers with guns kill twice as many people as terrorists do.
So instead of worrying about immigrants, Trump should focus on deporting toddlers.



http://www.euronews.com/2017/01/31/arme ... terrorists

Interesting...even if the data is dated. Could they be islamic toddlers?

I wonder how that compares to Europe though...especially more recently.

[2Fingers]

Btw, in America toddlers with guns kill twice as many people as terrorists do.
So instead of worrying about immigrants, Trump should focus on deporting toddlers.



http://www.euronews.com/2017/01/31/arme ... terrorists

Lawnmowers?

Really? Do they turn into autobots or something?

[Cornuck]

Well, of course all food must be labelled with country of origin! That's the law.

... maybe where you come from....

[Strangelove]

Yeahno that graph is complete and utter bullshit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... at_Britain

In the first 5.1 months of 2017 there have been 36 deaths from terrorism in the UK.

That is an 86-deaths-per-year pace.

Pretty sure that is the worst in UK history other than 1988

(just one single attack in 1988 - Pan Am Flight 103 = 270 deaths)

Seriously Per, can you double-check the accuracy of your graphs before posting them?

We should be using graphs in an effort to get at the truth, this graph accomplishes the opposite.

Thought you were going to stay out of this thread Damon?

Over the 45 years that span 1970-2015, there were a total of 1679 acts of terrorism in the UK with at least one casualty...

In the mid seventies there was a five year period with at least 200 casualties per year from terrorism in the UK.

Okaaay, different sources tallying in different ways.

For example your sources are counting the number of terrorists/paramilitarists killed

(which equates to the vast majority of the total deaths tallied!)

UMMM... let's remember that this conversation was about the question:

Why are People Making Such a Big Deal out of the Recent Terrorist Attacks in the UK?

ANSWER: Because never have so many civilians (innocents) have been killed at such a rapid pace.

(other than the Pan Am Flight 103 in 1988)

(now that I think about it, for our purposes, only 43 of the 270 deaths in that bombing were UK citizens)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provision ... lican_Army

(Wikipedia is drawing from solid sources here)

Estimated total civilian deaths from the IRA conflict:

1969–2001: 1,821 deaths, including 621 civilians = 19 civilians per yr
1969–2004: 1,781 deaths, including 644 civilians = 17 civilians per yr

So approximately 18 civilian deaths per year during the IRA conflict then.

Compare that to, as I pointed out, the 86-civilian-death-pace thus far in 2017.

That's Why People are Making Such a Big Deal out of the Recent Terrorist Attacks in the UK!

BTW that "18 civilian deaths per year" includes collateral damage.

(number of civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists was actually much lower than 18-per-yr)

[Per]

In the mid seventies there was a five year period with at least 200 casualties per year from terrorism in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provision ... lican_Army

(Wikipedia is drawing from solid sources here)

Estimated total civilian deaths from the IRA conflict:

1969–2001: 1,821 deaths, including 621 civilians = 19 civilians per yr
1969–2004: 1,781 deaths, including 644 civilians = 17 civilians per yr

So approximately 18 civilian deaths per year during the IRA conflict then.

Compare that to, as I pointed out, the 86-civilian-death-pace thus far in 2017.

That's Why People are Making Such a Big Deal out of the Recent Terrorist Attacks in the UK!

BTW that "18 civilian deaths per year" includes collateral damage.

(number of civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists was actually much lower than 18-per-yr)

So why are you only counting civilians and only those killed by the provisional IRA?

Don't the lives of the British (and to a minor extent Irish) soldiers and policemen count? You must be aware that most of the terrorist attacks specifically targetted military personnel and police, right?

And how about all those killed by the Official IRA, the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA), the Irish People's Liberation Organisation (IPLO), the Continuity IRA, the Real IRA or Ulster loyalist paramilitaries such as the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF), the Ulster Defence Association (UDA), the Red Hand Commando (RHC), the Ulster Resistance (UR) and the Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF)?

In total it's estmated that between 3500 and 3800 people were killed by terrorists during "the troubles", more than half of them civilians (depending a bit on how you define civilians), roughly one third military or police and the remainder members of the opposing groups. And close to 50,000 people were injured.

Furthermore, if the rain is pouring during the seventies, then there's a slight trickle throughout the eighties and nineties, of course you can manage to get a fairly low average, especially when you only count those killed by one of the groups in question, you refuse to count those wearing a uniform, and especially when you add a random number of years after the troubles effectively ended in 1998.

The fact remains, in the mid seventies there was a five year period when more than 200 people per year were killed by terrorists in the UK.

Of course if you eliminate all govt employees, only count those killed by a specific organisation, instead of the full dozen or so, and then spread it thin over a 30 year period, the numbers look more benign.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

[Island Nucklehead]

Doc slams MSM for hysterical reaction to Trump.
Doc echoes MSM hysterical reaction to terror attacks.

When the shoe fits, eh?

[Strangelove]

Why are People Making Such a Big Deal out of the Recent Terrorist Attacks in the UK?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provision ... lican_Army

(Wikipedia is drawing from solid sources here)

Estimated total civilian deaths from the IRA conflict:

1969–2001: 1,821 deaths, including 621 civilians = 19 civilians per yr
1969–2004: 1,781 deaths, including 644 civilians = 17 civilians per yr

So approximately 18 civilian deaths per year during the IRA conflict then.

Compare that to, as I pointed out, the 86-civilian-death-pace thus far in 2017.

That's Why People are Making Such a Big Deal out of the Recent Terrorist Attacks in the UK!

BTW that "18 civilian deaths per year" includes collateral damage.

(number of civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists was actually much lower than 18-per-yr)

So why are you only counting civilians and only those killed by the provisional IRA?

Really Per?

Scroll up and read the red part...

Don't the lives of the British (and to a minor extent Irish) soldiers and policemen count? You must be aware that most of the terrorist attacks specifically targetted military personnel and police, right?

In comparing #of-military-deaths during the IRA conflict to #of-military-deaths during the present day crisis

... if you want to count all the UK military deaths in the IRA conflict

... then I think you have to count all the UK military deaths deaths in the present "War on Terror".

(similar rate of military deaths per year)

But you are missing the bright red point.

This particular uproar you're trying to dispel is all about civilian deaths.

(depending a bit on how you define civilians)

In this case I say outraged folks are defining civilians as innocents (I mentioned that already).

Your sources (regarding the IRA conflict) include combatants as "civilians".

in the mid seventies there was a five year period

Getting back to the point

... people were making a very big deal about the carnage in the UK in the seventies

... and they're making a very big deal about the carnage in the UK today (40 years later).

Ahh you lefties and your "Nothing to see here, Islamic terrorism is no big deal" propaganda!

[Strangelove]

Doc slams MSM for hysterical reaction to Trump.
Doc echoes MSM hysterical reaction to terror attacks.

When the shoe fits, eh?

MSM is having a hysterical reaction to terror attacks??

The Great Strangelove is having a hysterical reaction to terror attacks??

What colour is the poop in your world?

[Per]

OK, here are some stats from the link I posted on The Troubles:

Casualties and losses

British military and police:
British Army (inc. UDR): 705
RUC: 301
NIPS: 24
TA: 7
Other UK police: 6
Royal Air Force: 4
Royal Navy: 2
Total: 1,049

Irish military and police:
Irish Army: 1
Gardaí: 9
IPS: 1
Total: 11

Republican Groups:
PIRA: 291
INLA: 39
OIRA: 27
IPLO: 9
RIRA: 2
Total: 368

Loyalist Groups:
UDA: 91
UVF: 62
RHC: 4
LVF: 3
UR: 2
Total: 162

Civilians killed: 1,841 (or 1,935 inc. ex-combatants)

Total dead: 3,532
Total injured: 47,500+

As can be seen the source does specify combattants as a specific group, or rather two; republicans and loyalists.

As can be seen your 600+ killed civilians at a rate of 18 per year is a red herring.
You are only counting "civilians" and only those killed by the Provisional IRA, one of th eten terrorist organisations listed here.

The loyalists actually killed more "civilians" than the republicans, who mainly killed military and police, but maybe you don't consider catholics innocent?

Furthermore, I'd say that at least half the casualties happened during the first ten years of the 30 year conflict, so that would be more at a rate of at least 90 civilians killed per year, but even that is a diluted number;
most of the casualties occurred during that dark five year period when more than 200 people were killed by terrorists in the UK every single year.

Why are you trying to lie about this?

[Cousin Strawberry]

Reuters UK article today about the EU trying to ram islamic economic migrants down the throats of Poland Hungary and Czech Republic...
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/id ... e=facebook

The best is the comments section someone calling the EU "Islamomarxists"

Considering how badly the populations of "host" countries don't want them...how long til this crap destroys the entire EU and/or triggers these eastern members to cozy up to Russia once again?

[Strangelove]

in the mid seventies there was a five year period

Getting back to the point

... people were making a very big deal about the carnage in the UK in the seventies

... and they're making a very big deal about the carnage in the UK today (40 years later).

Ahh you lefties and your "Nothing to see here, Islamic terrorism is no big deal" propaganda!

This.

[Strangelove]

Reuters UK article today about the EU trying to ram islamic economic migrants down the throats of Poland Hungary and Czech Republic...
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/id ... e=facebook

The best is the comments section someone calling the EU "Islamomarxists"

Considering how badly the populations of "host" countries don't want them...how long til this crap destroys the entire EU and/or triggers these eastern members to cozy up to Russia once again?

https://heatst.com/culture-wars/austria ... on-course/

The failed experiment that was the USSR EUSR.

[Per]

Don't the lives of the British (and to a minor extent Irish) soldiers and policemen count? You must be aware that most of the terrorist attacks specifically targetted military personnel and police, right?

In comparing #of-military-deaths during the IRA conflict to #of-military-deaths during the present day crisis

... if you want to count all the UK military deaths in the IRA conflict

... then I think you have to count all the UK military deaths deaths in the present "War on Terror".

Of course not. There is a huge difference between soldiers at home being killed by acts of terrorism and soldiers dying on the battle field in a war overseas. Sure, there are certainly IRA sympathizers that would argue that the British military personnel in Belfast, or on the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, were members of an occupation force stationed overseas, but the UK and most others would disagree. There was no war going on. The UK and Ireland had agreed on borders and signed a peace agreement. And they were not killed by Irish soldiers, they were killed by terrorists. While at home in their own country.

In statistics of those who are killed by acts of terrorism, I find it prudent to include police officers and military personnel. But in general not people killed in the line of duty in a war zone. The exemption would be if they are killed in a clear act of terrorism, such as the bombing of a hotel, in a zone that should be safe or during a cease fire that has been agreed upon.

But you are missing the bright red point.

This particular uproar you're trying to dispel is all about civilian deaths.

(depending a bit on how you define civilians)

In this case I say outraged folks are defining civilians as innocents (I mentioned that already).

And apparently you don't consider catholics killed by loyalist paramilitary groups innocent, since you specifically chose to only count those killed by the Provisional IRA?

Your sources (regarding the IRA conflict) include combatants as "civilians".

Uhmm... no. Look above, I posted a detailed acount for casualties in the Troubles, with members of republican and loyalist Groups listed separately from what is referred to as civilian casualties.

But even when you dissect the numbers of killed like this, you end up with more than 1800 civilian casualties, rather than your 600+ White wash attempt.

in the mid seventies there was a five year period

Getting back to the point

... people were making a very big deal about the carnage in the UK in the seventies

... and they're making a very big deal about the carnage in the UK today (40 years later).

As they rightfully should. I'm not "trying to dispel an uproar". I just reacted to the statement "London has fallen".

Of course London has not fallen. London has been through much worse before. During WWII they coined the phrase "keep calm and carry on", and that is what they do. They did it during The Blitz, they did it during The Troubles, and they will continue to do so during the Death Throes of the ISIS failure.

What we are seeing at this point in Europe are the desperate acts of a collapsing Evil Empire.
ISIS are being beaten on the battlefield in Iraq and Syria.

Their two last major cities, Mosul in Iraq and Raqqa in Syria, are besieged and falling by the hands of mainly Iraqi and Kurdish troops. The sudden increase in terror attacks in Europe is most likely a reaction to this. But once they have lost all the territory they have held, they will also lose most of their followers, and the few remaining die-hards will be easier to round up. Just like the IRA, the Brigati Rossi, ETA, Acción Direct, Baader-Meinhof and the other terrorist Groups of the 70's, ISIS will be a thing of the past, and we can all move on.

But that is not the Point. The Point I'm trying to make is that Europe, and the UK, has been through worse times before. Between 1971 and 1994 more than 100 people were killed in acts of terrorism every single year, and many years the Death toll was in the 300-400 range. From 1995 to 2014, the number of casualties only crossed the 100 line twice, and was normally below 50. Some years there were no casualties at all. The last three years, 2015-2017, we are seeing an increase again. It's probably on par with the 1980's, and of course it is possible we are heading toward a period as bad as the 70's, but I hope not.

It is tragic that innocent lives are taken, and it is of course an outrage every time it happens, but we must not be lead to belive that these are exceptional times, or even End Times. This is how it used to be.

Because we have had a twenty year period of relative calm, people seem to forget that it wasn't always like this. The 70's and 80's were bad. Really bad. Hopefully it won't ever get that bad again.

[Per]

Congrats Canada!
USA? Not so much...

https://www.facebook.com/worldeconomicf ... 615731479/

[Strangelove]

in the mid seventies there was a five year period

Getting back to the point

... people were making a very big deal about the carnage in the UK in the seventies

... and they're making a very big deal about the carnage in the UK today (40 years later).

As they rightfully should.

Finally!!

The last three years, 2015-2017, we are seeing an increase again. It's probably on par with the 1980's, and of course it is possible we are heading toward a period as bad as the 70's, but I hope not.

It is tragic that innocent lives are taken, and it is of course an outrage every time it happens, but we must not be lead to belive that these are exceptional times, or even End Times. This is how it used to be.

Because we have had a twenty year period of relative calm, people seem to forget that it wasn't always like this. The 70's and 80's were bad. Really bad. Hopefully it won't ever get that bad again.

Yes you are finally admitting the recent terrorist attacks in the UK are worthy of outrage!

... but at the same time, you are still trying to downplay them by comparing (dubious) IRA numbers.

London has been through much worse before. During WWII they coined the phrase "keep calm and carry on", and that is what they do. They did it during The Blitz, they did it during The Troubles, and they will continue to do so during the Death Throes of the ISIS failure.

Downplaying...

What we are seeing at this point in Europe are the desperate acts of a collapsing Evil Empire.
ISIS are being beaten on the battlefield in Iraq and Syria.

Their two last major cities, Mosul in Iraq and Raqqa in Syria, are besieged and falling by the hands of mainly Iraqi and Kurdish troops. The sudden increase in terror attacks in Europe is most likely a reaction to this. But once they have lost all the territory they have held, they will also lose most of their followers, and the few remaining die-hards will be easier to round up. Just like the IRA, the Brigati Rossi, ETA, Acción Direct, Baader-Meinhof and the other terrorist Groups of the 70's, ISIS will be a thing of the past, and we can all move on.

The War on Terror has been raging for 16 years now, ISIS has been a major player for just the last 3 years.

Per: "Nothing to see here folks, it wasn't much and it's almost over, move on!"

But that is not the Point. The Point I'm trying to make is that Europe, and the UK, has been through worse times before. Between 1971 and 1994 more than 100 people were killed in acts of terrorism every single year, and many years the Death toll was in the 300-400 range. From 1995 to 2014, the number of casualties only crossed the 100 line twice, and was normally below 50. Some years there were no casualties at all.

More bogus numbers and more downplaying...

You say you came into this conversation in response to Danny's "London has fallen" comment.

I suggest you took an opportunity to spread the standard downplay liberal narrative we see out there.

BTW Danny's "London has fallen" comment was in response to

... my post about 400 ISIS-warriors who have returned to London, free to do as they please.

tick tick tick

I was not surprised, after posting said post, that a few downplayers immediately showed up...