Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

Post by Per »

UWSaint wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:33 am I have a hard time seeing what's "Conservative" about the old tories these days; to me, the party seems more like Labour, but less radical, more cautious (and pusillanimous). Maybe they are about "conserving" the UK's structural deficiencies?
British people may get shocked by that statement, but I can see where you come from.

In American politics, the primaries reward candidates that take a radical position in their party. Thus the candidates presented in the actual elections are drawn away from centrist positions, and may not always seem palatable to most Americans. I think this is part of why American politics have become so divisive.

Britain doesn't have primaries, and typically both Labour and the Conservatives do best when they move toward the middle. Thus the UK conservative politicians often take a more centrist position than American conservatives would. And it goes both way. Neither Blaire nor Starmer come across as left wing politicians. Corbyn did, but he also did not win.

The Conservative party did once embrace protectionism and all sorts of extremely conservative positions, but after WW2 their position softened in many ways and they backed the NHS and labour laws that had been adopted. In the 1980's (under Thatcher) they became more market liberal. Her tough stance against unions are often seen as based in conservatism, but can also have a market liberal explanation, and these days conservatism and market liberalism tend to walk hand in hand.

Also, there is afaik not a single noteworthy political party in Europe that opposes free public health care. It's just not a thing.
Thus it should come as no surprise that the Conservative Party in Britain is in favour of the NHS.
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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

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UWSaint wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:33 am As for Brexit, I don't think that's a critical factor in the UK's current economic situation. Growth is stagnate in many European countries, inflation raged through the eurozone in 2022, etc.
While there certainly has been widespread economic problems all over Europe caused by the pandemic and the Russian war against Ukraine, there are structural problems inherent in Brexit that causes additional problems in Britain.

1) A shrinking domestic market.
As part of the single market British companies had access to a "domestic" market of more than 500 million people. No customs, no tarifs, extremely little red tape. A small family firm could receive an order from France or Germany, load the goods on a lorry and send it on its way. No more paperwork than when selling to a customer across the street. That market has now shrunk to just 67 million.

2) Loss of customers due to tarifs and red tape.
If the same company gets a similar order today, they need to fill out extensive paperwork and the shipment will be inspected on the border and customs fees and tarifs will be applied. Since the infrastructure for these border checks had been more or less done away with, the new structures are as of yet understaffed and underdimensioned, and shipments will often be stuck at the border for days. As a result deliveries take longer and products become more expensive for the customer, so they often decide to start buying their products elsewhere, ie from someone inside the single market.

3) Price increase on imported products.
The red tape, the customs fees and tarifs go both ways. Products from the EU become more expensive within the EU as tarifs and customs fees are applied, and the additional red tape for both the producer and the importer increases the cost of handling and adds even further to the price the final customer pays.

4) Loss of entire market segments due to slower delivery.
A vast majority of British fishermen voted to leave, as they wanted to get rid of competing fishing vessels in British waters (in many respects the EU is treated as one entity, and so fishing waters are in no way exclusive). In hindsight they regret this. Britons are rather more conservative in what they eat, and a lot of fish and shellfish were mainly exported to France and Belgium. Now, freshness is imperative for these products, and having your products stuck for three days at the border means they can no longer be sold as a premium product. The British fishing industry has had to switch to canning or freezing products in order to be able to export them, and then it becomes a completely different product that can not be sold at the same price as the fresh product. There is a similar problem, albeit not quite as drastic when it comes to flowers, fruits, berries and fresh produce.

5) Shortage of unskilled labour.
British farmers have been relying on migrant workers from Eastern and Southern Europe for harvesting fruits and berries that need to be handpicked. Since there are no restrictions on the free movement of labour within the EU people did not need to apply for work visas or residential status or whatever. They just showed up and went to work. When the harvest was done they went home again (you are only allowed to reside longer than three months in another member state if you can support yourself). As Polish and Portuguese fieldhands no longer are available and unemployed British youth is not all that interested in this line of work, crops are rotting in the fields. The same goes for the hospitality industry. Scores of young Swedish women used to head to London to work in pubs or restaurants for a year or two before going to college. Now it's too complicated, so they go elsewhere. Maybe to Paris, Berlin or Dublin. Or even Oslo. As a result pubs, restaurants and hotels in Britain have a severe hiring problem.

6) Lack of truck drivers and skilled workers.
Millions of East Europeans, mainly from Poland, migrated to the UK to drive trucks or work in plumbing or construction, as the pay they would get there was roughly twice what they'd get back home. This was widely used in Brexit campaigning, implying that Polish workers were stealing jobs from Britons. In reality they provided much needed services at reasonable prices, which increased the standard of living both in the UK, where people could afford having more work done, and in Poland, as they sent home part of their earnings to their family. After Brexit these people relocated. Many - having already collected a nice nest egg - went back home, others moved to eg Germany. As a result there is now a shortage of skilled workers in many industries and especially in distribution. Boris Johnson tried to amend this by offereing three months visas to truck drivers. But as one Polish truck driver said: "I can't bring my family to Britain on the premise of having to apply for a new visa every three months. We've already moved to Germany and are quite happy here."

7) The finance sector.
This has actually done better than predicted. Prior to Brexit it was estimated that 75,000 jobs in the City of London might be lost. In reality it has only been 7,000. However, between 2018 and 2021, there was an 18% decrease in financial services exports to the EU, with only a 4% increase in exports to non-EU countries to offset it. To some extent the impact is being muddied by the effects of the pandemic, but this dip is worse than for the OECD, the EU27 and the G7 averages, so it may still mean something.
https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/ ... ial-sector

8) Overall impact on the British economy.
The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) predicts that the long term effect of Brexit on the British economy amounts to a 4 percent reduction of GDP, compared to if Britain had stayed in the EU. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59070020

9) More refugees.
While Britain belonged to the EU, they benefitted from an EU rule saying that refugees must apply for asylum in the member state that was their point of entry to the EU. This meant that most refugees arriving in Britain were just put on the next ferry heading back to the continent. Since the UK left the EU, they are no longer privy to this, and France, Belgium, etc, refuse to accept that Britain ships refugees back to them.
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This is ironic, given that a lot of people voting for Brexit did so to get rid of immigrants. As the chart shows, it has had this effect on EU immigrants, but simultanously the number of non-European immigrants is going straight up, except for a minor dip during the pandemic.
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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

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You can see why the Russians are such a nuisance. :roll:

Sure, Greece and the Balkans have a similar attitude, but at least they don’t have nukes.
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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

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Per wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:38 am
UWSaint wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:33 am As for Brexit, I don't think that's a critical factor in the UK's current economic situation. Growth is stagnate in many European countries, inflation raged through the eurozone in 2022, etc.
While there certainly has been widespread economic problems all over Europe caused by the pandemic and the Russian war against Ukraine, there are structural problems inherent in Brexit that causes additional problems in Britain.
I think most of those structural problems are not inherent in Brexit (e.g., UK controls its immigration policy, it just hasn't done anything (hence part of the conservatives aren't conservative). One can have sovereignty and make trade deals, control border, etc.

But the broader point is simply that while we can look at all of these little pennies (and you make some good points), the dollar bills over our heads are saying the same thing: the UK while still adjusting to Brexit is not performing materially differently than the EU countries. Now maybe the UK would be outperforming its current economy if it had remined in the EU; its a counterfactual we can't test, but it is a plausible hypothesis. But in the years before Brexit, the UK wasn't leading the pack economically, was it?

But ultimately, whether the UK was wise to leave the EU or not depends on more measures than "economic performance," and even economic performance is a longer time horizon thing. And its also isn't just a theoretical question. The people in charge and the policies they adopt matter. How have they done on that score? Remarkably, no better than Brussels....
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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

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Ursula von der Leyen was reelected for another term as President of the European Commission.
401 out of 720 votes, so a pretty solid majority.

As a German Christian Democrat she represents the conservative EPP, but has managed to hold together a coalition of conservatives, social democrats and liberals, which isn’t an easy task. But she probably could draw on her experience as a mother of seven. Born in Belgium to German parents she grew up there and was 12 when they moved back to Germany. She studied at the London School of Economics before switching to medicine at the University of Hannover where she also mer her husband. They are both MDs. They lived in the USA for four years in the 90’s and Ursula is fluent in English as well as French and German, which comes in handy.

In her acceptance speech she confirmed that Europe will stand by Ukraine for as long as it takes.
Appeasement is not on the table. :thumbs:

Earlier this week Roberta Metsola, from the Maltese National Party, which also belongs to the EPP, was also reelected as speaker of the European Parliament. Or, OK, officially the title is President of the European Parliament, but her role is really what in most parliaments is referred to as the speaker. She has a law degree and is as mother of four. As you may notice she has a Finnish last name, as her husband is a Finnish MEP for the EPP. So she is from the southernmost EU member state and he is from the northernmost member state. A cool symbol for a United Europe.
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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

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A month after winning election in the UK, Keir Starmer's approval rating is -7%.
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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

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Topper wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 2:53 pm A month after winning election in the UK, Keir Starmer's approval rating is -7%.
:lol:

Yeah, it's a tough crowd. And because of Brexit everything is going to shit.

Still probably better numbers than Rishi Sunak or Theresa May had... :look:
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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

Post by Megaterio Llamas »

Yeah the natives appear to be restless over there.


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And the new arrivals seem a little agitated too:

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https://x.com/BowesChay/status/1827490565132271929
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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

Post by Megaterio Llamas »

French media (TF1) report that Pavel Durov was detained at Paris' Le Bourget airport as he was leaving his private jet.

Before that, he was in Baku, where he was allegedly introduced to Putin

This is odd because France is well known for it's freedom.

Hopefully Musk isn't planning a vacation on the Riviera :look:
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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

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The warrant was issued because Durov did not cooperate with French security forces, which makes him an accomplice to drug trafficking and other serious crimes - TF1

Investigators placed Durov in custody - TF1

Pavel Durov is due to appear before a judge this Saturday evening, he will be charged with multiple crimes

Possible charges include terrorism, drugs, complicity, fraud, money laundering, concealment, pedophile content, TF1 reports.

The EU authorities' main complaint about Telegram is encrypted messages, TF1 writes.

"Over the years, it has become the number 1 platform for organized crime," the investigator said.
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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

Post by Megaterio Llamas »

Chris Pavlovski finally saw the writing on the wall.


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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

Post by Megaterio Llamas »

David Sacks isn't wrong.

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The US might not be safe for long either though the Americans will fight for their rights.

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https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1827551238893776956
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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

Post by Cornuck »

So are these fully encrypted sites that let anyone post / transfer anything (including child porn and drug deals) and not having a staff to investigate (Telegram has about 100 employees) hiding behind "free speech" to get the sympathy?
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Re: Old World Politics - rising from the ashes

Post by Megaterio Llamas »

Cornuck wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2024 1:25 pm So are these fully encrypted sites that let anyone post / transfer anything (including child porn and drug deals) and not having a staff to investigate (Telegram has about 100 employees) hiding behind "free speech" to get the sympathy?
There's reputedly even more of that going on at Facebook. but I'm not sure what Zuck is hiding behind. Certainly not free speech.

Presumably the FBI had no trouble getting access there. At least that's been my assumption.



https://youtu.be/vKBOrkk1FZE?si=o5AExsA6-kJpmf3m

01:20 Who Was Involved in Pavel Durov’s Arrest?
15:50 How Telegram Is Used by the CIA
27:22 Domestic Policy Doesn’t Exist
34:19 The Redefining of Democracy
39:21 The Biggest Threat to NATO
44:16 What Is DARPA?
1:02:53 WhatsApp and the Facebook Files
1:13:34 Does Putin Have a Back Door to Telegram?
1:19:12 The Red Lines Memo to Zelensky
1:28:09 The Real Motive Behind Durov’s Arrest
1:43:51 The Deep State vs. Donald Trump
1:50:46 Will They Take Out Elon Musk Next?
2:04:27 Would Benz Join a Trump Administration?




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https://x.com/MikeBenzCyber/status/1828928441129021634


00:00:00 Intro
00:02:59 From internet freedom to internet censorship
00:17:12 Social media eclipses the legacy media
00:23:08 The Global Engagement Center
00:31:08 The 2020 election and Covid pandemic
00:45:29 The impeachment of Donald Trump
00:51:32 Intel agencies work with the mainstream media
00:58:48 Elon Musk and X
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