US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20 *AND* 22 *AND* 24 *AND* Beyond

[Cornuck]

It's hard to gather exact data on how many illegals vote, but studies have been done:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9414000973

... says the upper estimate was close to 3 million in the 2008 Presidential election.

Interesting - gave it a quick scan for now, but will go back to it. Maybe you can show griz how to link to factual sources.

(although this was done by a Harvard professor, so griz won't trust him - unless griz agrees with the outcome)

So Doc - do you have a problem with non-citizens? Or non-citizens voting?

[griz]

Maybe you can show griz how to link to factual sources.

The truth is out there.

(although this was done by a Harvard professor, so griz won't trust him - unless griz agrees with the outcome)

Question everything.

So Doc - do you have a problem with non-citizens? Or non-citizens voting?

I assume you mean non-citizens voting. Well, it's ridiculous and illegal. Imagine going to Mexico and voting without being a citizen.

[Cornuck]

So Doc - do you have a problem with non-citizens? Or non-citizens voting?

I assume you mean non-citizens voting. Well, it's ridiculous and illegal. Imagine going to Mexico and voting without being a citizen.

I would have thought you would be for the idea of taxpayers having the right to representation. Considering half the country doesn't give a shit enough to vote, maybe let the people the who actually do want to vote have their say?

[Strangelove]

So Doc - do you have a problem with... non-citizens voting?

Well we know Per has a problemo with dat dere amirite?

[griz]

So Doc - do you have a problem with non-citizens? Or non-citizens voting?

I assume you mean non-citizens voting. Well, it's ridiculous and illegal. Imagine going to Mexico and voting without being a citizen.

I would have thought you would be for the idea of taxpayers having the right to representation. Considering half the country doesn't give a shit enough to vote, maybe let the people the who actually do want to vote have their say?

I think Trey Goudy makes a lot of sense regarding illegal immigration :

[Per]

So Doc - do you have a problem with... non-citizens voting?

Well we know Per has a problemo with dat dere amirite?

Now you are just muddying the waters. There is a huge difference between non-citizens and illegal immigrants.

There is a good argument to be made for letting non-citizens with work permits be part of the political process. As Cornuck just stated, it seems fair that the tax payers have a say in what their taxes go to.

In Swedish national elections only Swedish citizens who are or have been residents of Sweden are eligible to vote. (The second part may sound confusing, but it basically means that if you were born abroad, and you have never been living in Sweden, you can't vote.) But in municipal and county elections, apart from Swedish citizens, the right to vote is also given to EU citizens and citizens of Iceland and Norway who are residents of the municipality/county as well as citizens of other countries who have been Swedish residents for a minimum of three consecutive years and reside in the municipality/county.

No one needs to register to vote. If you are eligible to vote, your name and identity number (given at birth to Swedish citizens and to immigrants when they get their work or residential permit) will be in the ledger at the polling station you are supposed to go to. You also get a voting card sent to your home address that can be used for absentee voting.

Illegal immigrants is a different story altogether. If anyone can vote, you have no control over the country.
Imagine China sending 200 million Chinese to vote in the US election....
Not a likely scenario, but small countries like eg Estonia and Latvia could easily be overrun by Russians pouring in to vote if there were no control of voter eligibility. Hey... maybe Californians should start trying to vote in the swing states instead, where their votes would be worth more?

A person who is not a citizen and not a legal resident should not be able to vote imho.
But it should be very easy to control that that doesn't happen.

[Cornuck]

And note the estimated number of illegals has increased from ~19mil in 2008 to ~23mil today.

What's interesting is the the 'left' in their bubble decry the plan deport illegal immigrants. The 'right' in their own bubble decry the 'fact' the Obama has done nothing about the illegal immigrant problem.

Meanwhile, there have been 2.4 million or so illegal immigrants removed from the US while Obama was in office. ( I think that 91% had a criminal record, although entering the country illegally might be enough to put them in that category)

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... ks-about-/

Why would a democrat get rid of so many "voters"?

I don't have a problem with someone risking their life to try to get a new chance. If that means entering a country illegally and taking a job that most people don't want, then fine. If they don't commit crimes while they're here, let them have a path to citizenship.

If we deport all of them, large parts of the economy will collapse. New Yorkers will need to learn to cook as all the restaurants will shut down. The fruit will go rotten in the fields (or maybe droughts will solve that problem?). New houses in Vegas and Phoenix won't have roofs, because who the hell wants to put a roof on an 100F weather.

So I guess the question is - should we have a designated scapegoat for our problems or just learn to make society better?

[griz]

A person who is not a citizen and not a legal resident should not be able to vote imho.

I agree Per.

Back to the mainstream media topic for a moment, here's a list of Journalists who colluded with the Clinton campaign from Ron Paul :

http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/arc ... -news-list

I don't have a problem with someone risking their life to try to get a new chance. If that means entering a country illegally and taking a job that most people don't want, then fine. If they don't commit crimes while they're here, let them have a path to citizenship.

See the video from Trey Goudy that I just posted for a rational solution.

[Strangelove]

By next election Trump will have deported the 3 million illegal immigrants who voted for Hilly.

Source please. Trustworthy. None of that Breitbart or Infowars alt right bs.
I don't believe this for one second. If it is that easy for non-eligible people to vote, the US must truly be a third world country.

Maybe you haven't heard but it's a huge problem in America.

I believe something like 7% of the US population are "non-citizens".

It's hard to gather exact data on how many illegals vote, but studies have been done:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9414000973

... says the upper estimate was close to 3 million in the 2008 Presidential election.

And note the estimated number of illegals has increased from ~19mil in 2008 to ~23mil today.

There is a good chance, given Trump's anti-illegals rhetoric that illegals were out in full force to oppose him.

I don't know Per, read the link and then tell me how many illegals you think voted for Hilly.

Now you are just muddying the waters. There is a huge difference between non-citizens and illegal immigrants.

There is a good argument to be made for letting non-citizens with work permits be part of the political process. As Cornuck just stated, it seems fair that the tax payers have a say in what their taxes go to.

In Swedish national elections blah blah blah...

I'm "muddying the waters"?

We were talking about 3 million people illegally voting for Hillary

And the fact those votes are counted in your "popular vote" tallies.

Now, you and Corn can wax philosophically about how "non citizen" votes should perhaps ideally count

... but the fact is that it is presently illegal for "non-citizens" to vote in US federal elections.

(and that obviously won't be changing anytime soon)

Neither "non-citizen votes" nor "illegal immigrant votes" should be counted in the "popular vote".

But all we can do is make educated guesses as to how many of said votes are in fact counted in the tallies.

It's a mess, but not to worry, Donald J Trump is here to mop things up by enforcing existing laws.

In four years time a lot of those who illegally vote Dem will be gonzo alonzo

= more of the popular vote for Mr Trump.

He's going to punt a lot of the people who would vote against him right over that wall!

Ya gotta love this guy amirite?

[Strangelove]

Yeah he's an asshole.

[griz]

Yeah he's an asshole.

We need him on the Canucks. Hillary can't skate.

[Per]

By next election Trump will have deported the 3 million illegal immigrants who voted for Hilly.

Source please. Trustworthy. None of that Breitbart or Infowars alt right bs.
I don't believe this for one second. If it is that easy for non-eligible people to vote, the US must truly be a third world country.

Maybe you haven't heard but it's a huge problem in America.

I believe something like 7% of the US population are "non-citizens".

It's hard to gather exact data on how many illegals vote, but studies have been done:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9414000973

... says the upper estimate was close to 3 million in the 2008 Presidential election.

And note the estimated number of illegals has increased from ~19mil in 2008 to ~23mil today.

There is a good chance, given Trump's anti-illegals rhetoric that illegals were out in full force to oppose him.

I don't know Per, read the link and then tell me how many illegals you think voted for Hilly.

BTW have you learned to love The Donald yet?

Thanks for providing the link!

OK, so basically the author concludes that somewhere between 34,000 and 2.8 million non-citizens may have voted.
That is a far leap from saying for certain that 3 million voted, but sure this seems to be the origin of the claims of the people at Breitbart and Infowars who of course, with their limited reading comprehension, might jump to these conclusions.

But it must be noted that this study from 2014 has been criticized for poor methodology and for drawing too drastic conclusions from very limited sample size. If you in fact delve into it, they only managed to confirm that 5 of those who stated that they were non-citizens had actually managed to vote, and that we don't even know for sure that they were non-citizens, as some who listed themselves as non-citizens in 2012 had listed themselves as citizens in 2010. One of those entries must almost certainly be wrong, as it must be very rare that people actually revoke their citizenship and then go on to vote.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... ns-voting/

Indeed, especially telling is this: Of the 85 respondents who said they were non-citizens in both 2010 and 2012, there was not a single voter. In other words, among the group of respondents who we can actually be confident are non-citizens, none voted.

Thus the best estimate of the percentage of non-citizens who vote is zero.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... es-citing/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9415001420


My guess? I assume it is possible that if some election workers do a shoddy job, some non-citizens may have managed to vote, but my guess would be that that figure would be in the thousands rather than the millions.
Don't forget that an attempt to vote by a non-citizen is an offense that will have you thrown out of the country immediately, without trial, and will bar you from ever entering the US again. It's a pretty steep risk to take. Especially for the non-citizens that are not illegal immigrants and often have worked hard for their green cards.

[Strangelove]

Lol it's anyone's guess Per, it could well be in the millions!

Non-citizens certainly feel safe to vote without repercussions (particularly in Cali).

There are very very few stories of being caught/punished.

I did mention 2.8M was the "upper limit"... back in the 2008 election.

There are 20% more illegals in the US today than there were in 2008 according to estimates.

And like I said, they were certainly motivated to vote against Trump this time around.

Really, they had nothing to lose by voting, seeing as Trump promised he would go after them if he got in.

Gonna triple the number of immigration officers!

Wot an ASSHOLE!!


EDIT: If you're truly interested in the truth, you should read the "comments section" on that WP article!

[Per]

By next election Trump will have deported the 3 million illegal immigrants who voted for Hilly.

Source please. Trustworthy. None of that Breitbart or Infowars alt right bs.
I don't believe this for one second. If it is that easy for non-eligible people to vote, the US must truly be a third world country.

Maybe you haven't heard but it's a huge problem in America.

I believe something like 7% of the US population are "non-citizens".

It's hard to gather exact data on how many illegals vote, but studies have been done:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9414000973

... says the upper estimate was close to 3 million in the 2008 Presidential election.

And note the estimated number of illegals has increased from ~19mil in 2008 to ~23mil today.

There is a good chance, given Trump's anti-illegals rhetoric that illegals were out in full force to oppose him.

I don't know Per, read the link and then tell me how many illegals you think voted for Hilly.

Now you are just muddying the waters. There is a huge difference between non-citizens and illegal immigrants.

There is a good argument to be made for letting non-citizens with work permits be part of the political process. As Cornuck just stated, it seems fair that the tax payers have a say in what their taxes go to.

In Swedish national elections blah blah blah...

I'm "muddying the waters"?

And now you are muddying the waters again, by using imaginative editing to make it look like that comment was to a completely different post than it actually was. This is what really happened:

So Doc - do you have a problem with... non-citizens voting?

Well we know Per has a problemo with dat dere amirite?

Now you are just muddying the waters. There is a huge difference between non-citizens and illegal immigrants.

Now, just to make it clear; I don't have a problem with non-citizens voting, if they are eligible to vote, something Cornuck suggested they should be. In some countries non-citizens are eligible to vote, and I gave the example that non-citizens who are residents can vote in Swedish municipal and county elections, but not in national elections. I also stated that having non-citizens vote in national elections could create a threat, especially for smaller nations, of foreign intervention in their elections.

In the USA, non-citizens are not eligible to vote, and therefore I of course think it's wrong if they do so.

And illegal immigrants are by definition never eligible to vote.

I do however seriously question the probability of that many non-citizens voting. From my experience as an election worker, albeit in Sweden, that would just not be feasible. Is really the control in the US that much more lax? Having gone through immigration at airports in various countries, it would seem to me that the ones in the US are the most cumbersome and annoying, do it just. Doesn't seem plausible that when it cones to voting suddenly there is complete and total anarchy. I just don't buy it.

There has been another study in which they went through the voting records, trying to find voter fraud, and the total they came up with was less than 100. I don't know what methodology they used; maybe they weren't trying hard enough, but still. The span from below 100 to nearly 3 million.... the lower number seems far more likely to me.

[Strangelove]

And now you are muddying the waters again, by using imaginative editing to make it look like that comment was to a completely different post than it actually was. This is what really happened:

Well the train was coming off the rails, I was honestly trying to right the ship.

Then I had to delete 2 of the shorter comments as I was over the allowed number of quotes.

The waters have become somewhat muddied, but it's not fair to point the finger at yours truly...

Now, just to make it clear; I don't have a problem with non-citizens voting, if they are eligible to vote, something Cornuck suggested they should be. In some countries non-citizens are blah blah blah

AGAIN, you're just "muddying the waters" by waxing philosophical.

We were talking about how many of the popular votes Hillary received should not count - 3 mil?

Whether or not the laws should be the way they are

... is irrelevant to our conversation about the most recent 'popular vote' numbers.

In the USA, non-citizens are not eligible to vote, and therefore I of course think it's wrong if they do so.

THANK YOU

I do however seriously question the probability of that many non-citizens voting. From my experience as an election worker, albeit in Sweden, that would just not be feasible. Is really the control in the US that much more lax?

YES!

Having gone through immigration at airports in various countries, it would seem to me that the ones in the US are the most cumbersome and annoying, do it just.

... and yet there are many millions of illegals living in America (most of them for decades).

That's a fact.

It is TOTALLY lax... and that's the problem.

Are you starting to understand why folks felt it was time for someone like Donald?