US Erection 12 *AND* 16 *AND* 20 *AND* 22 *AND* 24 *AND* Beyond

[5thhorseman]

So you want to call it malarkey but not have to back up your words.

You're disengaging from the topic again.

Honest question here 5th, and I'd appreciate an honest answer.

Do you actually believe the things you say, or are you simply playing devil's advocate for the sake of conversation?

Why would I not believe the things I'm saying? I've given rational explanations for them. And these are mainstream views not something from the lunatic fringe.

[Meds]

No, it's not needed. Election fraud due to in-person voter impersonation is incredibly rare. There is no problem to solve.

So photo ID just ends up disenfranchising minorities and the poor. Politicians deliberately use this fake issue to get an edge in elections.

Why does it disenfranchise them? Why can they not get photo ID?

It's not that it's impossible, there's just a lot of barriers, many related to poverty.
- they don't drive and have never needed a driver's licence.
- they are missing underlying documents such as a birth certificate, lost in a move or due to temporary homelessness
- the cost of replacement documents, transportation, or time off work can be a barrier, even if the ID itself is free
- elderly people, people with disabilities, or those living in remote areas may have difficulty getting to an issuing office.
- people who have recently moved, experienced homelessness, or changed their name may have trouble obtaining or updating ID
- rural and Native Americans born at home or on reservations and tribal lands lack paperwork

I think it's hard for us Canadians to appreciate this since it's so normal for us to have photo Id, but in the US, 18% of all citizens over the age of 65, 16% of Latino voters, 25% of Black voters, and 15% of low-income Americans lack acceptable photo ID. There's a lot of Americans living hand to mouth and it's just not worth it to them to go through the trouble and expense of getting a photo id just to vote.

I didn't realize that obtaining an ID there was so difficult. I don't for a second think that there should be barriers to obtaining government accepted ID, it should be a state responsibility to make it available, it should be a parent, and later individual's, responsibility to go get it and keep track of it.

The bold italics.....perhaps rephrase it, because while it might be challenging for some of the examples you list, it is not impossible. It may be mildly time consuming, and there may be a few hoops to jump through, but the actual cost is not prohibitive at all.

AI responded to my query regarding where the greatest populations of ID-less individuals reside in the US with California and Texas as the leaders.....mostly based just on total population. It also pointed out Indiana and Georgia as examples of states with strict ID laws that have 6-figure populations of people without ID.

In terms of costs, in Cali a regular ID card costs $40, for seniors it's free, and for those needing assistance they can get a reduced-fee card for $11.

In Texas it is $16 for average folks, it's reduced or free for seniors, disabled vets can qualify for a freebie, and replacements cost $11.

In Indiana, a standard or REAL ID-compliant state identification card in Indiana costs $9.00 for an initial, renewal, amended, or replacement card. However, the ID is free if you are at least 18 years old, a U.S. citizen, and eligible to vote.

Looking at Georgia.....a standard ID (8-Year) is $32 when applying or renewing in person. If you have a disability it is $5. A Voter ID: FREE if you are a registered voter, do not possess a driver's license or other valid photo ID, and need it solely for voting purposes. This can be obtained at any Georgia DDS office.

So the question is: if they don't think it's worth it, why is that on anyone but them?

[rats19]

Ok here’s the elephant in my room…

Are these the votes that would cancel out a hard working tax paying I D voters vote… are these the voters you want voting? If you can’t get identification you probably shouldn’t have a say in how or who is elected.

Homeless tweaker cancels my vote….

[Topper]

The Save America Act voter ID requirement only affects those looking to get on the voters list, not those already on it.

36 US States already require ID to vote.

Have a look at what we in Canada need to vote Federally and look at Option 2 with the list of acceptable ID

https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?s ... dex&lang=e

Aboriginals have even a less onerous proof of ID, they only need a Status Card. Some Status Cards do not have a photo. and there has been a case of an aboriginal with a Canadian Status Card having voted in multiple Canadian elections despite living in the US making him ineligible. He was only caught out because another voter saw him at the poling station and pointed it out to the staff.

There are also charitable groups, often churches, that are allowed by Elections Canada, to use their address to register the homeless.

It is not difficult to get ID in the US and is insulting to to the intelligence to say otherwise.

If someone is too stupid to get on the voters list, do you really want them participating?

If it is not a priority for 5ths disadvantaged, even if his numbers are correct, to obtain ID to vote, what is their personal interest level in voting? Not the partisan organisation making them vote, but their personal interest.

[donlever]

Gonna be tough for the "ID less" NY group 5th notates to get the cheap food which is kind of the point of the cheap food no.

[5thhorseman]

Are these the votes that would cancel out a hard working tax paying I D voters vote… are these the voters you want voting?

If someone is too stupid to get on the voters list, do you really want them participating?

These are the attitudes that help marginalise these groups and underpinned voter suppression for many decades. Do you really think your intelligence or your hard work makes your vote more important?

[5thhorseman]

... and it's just not worth it to them to go through the trouble and expense of getting a photo id just to vote.

The bold italics.....perhaps rephrase it, because while it might be challenging for some of the examples you list, it is not impossible. It may be mildly time consuming, and there may be a few hoops to jump through, but the actual cost is not prohibitive at all.

Agreed it's not impossible but what the stats show is a large segment of the population still does not have photo ID, so I don't think you can assume it's mildly time-consuming. I did minimal research for my post so I'm probably just scratching the surface of the barriers that are there.

So why not enable them to vote? Especially since it does nothing to harm election integrity. Why does everyone have such a hard-on for photo ID which has virtually no benefit?

[rats19]

Are these the votes that would cancel out a hard working tax paying I D voters vote… are these the voters you want voting?

If someone is too stupid to get on the voters list, do you really want them participating?

These are the attitudes that help marginalise these groups and underpinned voter suppression for many decades. Do you really think your intelligence or your hard work makes your vote more important?

I do… in a lot of cases yes I think voting is a right of privilege earned through following the rules laid out .

[rats19]

... and it's just not worth it to them to go through the trouble and expense of getting a photo id just to vote.

The bold italics.....perhaps rephrase it, because while it might be challenging for some of the examples you list, it is not impossible. It may be mildly time consuming, and there may be a few hoops to jump through, but the actual cost is not prohibitive at all.

Agreed it's not impossible but what the stats show is a large segment of the population still does not have photo ID, so I don't think you can assume it's mildly time-consuming. I did minimal research for my post so I'm probably just scratching the surface of the barriers that are there.

So why not enable them to vote? Especially since it does nothing to harm election integrity. Why does everyone have such a hard-on for photo ID which has virtually no benefit?

See the thing is if they vote illegally it does harm integrity

[UWSaint]

I think it's hard for us Canadians to appreciate this since it's so normal for us to have photo Id, but in the US, 18% of all citizens over the age of 65, 16% of Latino voters, 25% of Black voters, and 15% of low-income Americans lack acceptable photo ID.

This is not true. I've seen these estimates associated with demographic breakdown's of who has a driver's license (I've also seen estimates that have the number lacking a driver's license lower). Unfortunately, the USDOT doesn't track demographics and licenses, so national estimates are just that. But regardless of the confidence level in that data, the more important point is that a driver's license is not the only "acceptable photo id" for voting. There are lots of reasons people might not have a driver's license. They don't drive. They've had it taken away (age, vision, failed test, drunk driving). They just drive without a license because they don't follow the rules.

Unsurprisingly, there's a U-Shape to age demographics and who has a license -- those who are older and under 25 are far more likely to not have licenses.

I don't know what you mean by "acceptable photo ID" given that Save Act hasn't passed and states have different laws as to what constitutes an acceptable form of photo id.

[UWSaint]

Are these the votes that would cancel out a hard working tax paying I D voters vote… are these the voters you want voting?

If someone is too stupid to get on the voters list, do you really want them participating?

These are the attitudes that help marginalise these groups and underpinned voter suppression for many decades. Do you really think your intelligence or your hard work makes your vote more important?

If by marginalization you mean living on the margins of society, I would think laziness and stupidity has a greater effect on "marginalizing" an individual than race or any other demographic characteristic. What with intelligence and industriousness having a strong correlation to successful outcomes. Not necessary, not sufficient, but quite helpful.

But we live in a republic with a large franchise. Every vote is as important as any other (within the political jurisdiction voting). ITs how the math works.

But normatively, I think citizenship in a republic or democracy carries with it a responsibility/duty to exercise the vote conscientiously. To familiarize yourself with a candidate's positions and also to try and understand how those positions will manifest (or have manifested) into public policy and ultimately impacted the common good (or the thing you are hoping to further with your vote). Would you agree with me that an informed voter is better than a button masher, and an informed electorate is likely to yield better results than a randomized selection of candidates?

Intelligence (the ability to process information) and industry (the drive to put in the effort) probably correlate with a more informed electorate. Now would I base the franchise on demonstrating intelligence or industry? Probably not, though I wouldn't inflexibly reject exploring policies that would have a legal process for disenfranchisement in extreme cases of incapacity (e.g., have you ever had a relative with advanced Alzeimer's who is completely incapable of holding a thought? -- if they vote, there is someone voting for them and there's no question about it). But the bar would have to be very high, because I don't trust the testers any more than I trust the ignorant, the former often being manipulators, the latter simply being uninformed or unintelligent.

[UWSaint]

Especially since it [voter photo id] does nothing to harm election integrity. Why does everyone have such a hard-on for photo ID which has virtually no benefit?

Let me ask you this -- if you were mistaken about your premises -- if voter id enhanced election integrity and had a net benefit, would you change your position? If not, why not?

[UWSaint]

I didn't realize that obtaining an ID there was so difficult. I don't for a second think that there should be barriers to obtaining government accepted ID, it should be a state responsibility to make it available, it should be a parent, and later individual's, responsibility to go get it and keep track of it.

It isn't difficult to get an ID. You do have to prove who you are -- that sometimes takes a little effort, more or less depending on the state law. But that's kind of why the id is a good integrity tool. There's a verification of baseline requirements for voter eligibility.

I am pretty sure that every state which requires a photo id for voting makes a voting purposes only id itself available without charge. Again, that doesn't necessarily eliminate all potential costs obtaining the id -- you have to get to the government office, you may have to obtain a birth certificate, etc. But the overall costs are minor, particularly compared with political spending in this country trying to get that person's vote, and you can never fully eliminate the overhead and indirect costs of life.