Re-booted SKYO approved pipe dreams and trade ideas

[UWSaint]

Chytil, Markus Pettersson and Victor Mancini for JT Miller and a 1st is not the worst trade in team history considering the extenuating circumstances with JT losing his shit

I wouldn't count the first -- it came in and went out.

So its Chytil, MP3, Mancini, O'Connor, JT Miller and prospect Fernstrom, but not a first. Arguably could put Desharnais and Heinen on either side of the ledger -- a $4.25M liability to the Canucks next season for two guys they didn't have roster parts for, but likely movable separately without a sweetner for spare parts (as Desharnais was).

Sort of like how Hronek, Raty, a 4th and 5th (Beau2's return) directly or indirectly acquired for Horvat and a 2d -- you don't count the first that comes in and moves out.

Having said that, unlike Hronek who was an RFA, MP3 and O'Connor were true rentals extended for approximate UFA market value -- in other words, assets that might have been available this offseason while keeping the Rangers' 1st.

[Cousin Strawberry]

I think they had been trying to pry MPete out of Pitt for a long time and when the opportunity arose they jumped on it.

Can't say I blame them. He's been fantastic for Van.

With all the young promising defenders coming along, does anyone see them resigning Forbort? He was quite good especially on the PK but if he's looking for cake (as he should be) I cant see them spending on that one unfortunately

[Chef Boi RD]

Remember, he basically flipped the entire organization overnight from having a rubbish defense…

To absolutely annihilating our centre slot (Horvat for Hronek and Miller for Pettersson and Mancini).

While one hand is bailing water out of the canoe the other hand is drilling holes.

In fairness, what the fuck was he supposed to do and how was he to know Miller would lose his marbles on his teammate like that?

Miller losing his marbles was nothing new, check out some of Brad Richardsons and Bruce Boudreau’s comments regarding Millers marbles. Also the Miller/Horvat fued, goes way back. The signs were clearly there on who “the cancer” was. A GM with an acute finger on the pulse, knowing the room, would’ve spotted “the problem” and executed accordingly for the betterment of the organization. It all went wrong when they decided to keep Miller over Horvat. It’s been a comedy of errors since.

[Blob Mckenzie]

He never counts the picks they acquire. It fucks up his miserable grumbling.,


Now he's whining about them dealing Horvat. He hated Bo when he was here.

[Cousin Strawberry]

He never counts the picks they acquire. It fucks up his miserable grumbling.,


Now he's whining about them dealing Horvat. He hated Bo when he was here.

Is UWS a miserable grumbler??? I don't agree there

[Chef Boi RD]

Trading legit top two centres in Horvat and Miller for no quality centres in return who could step in seamlessly replacing those two on a team “trying” to make the playoffs reminds me of when Gillis traded two no. 1 goalies in Schneider and Luongo back to back for no equal starter in return, a starting goaltender who could step in right away replacing those two. Like expecting Chytil and his concussions to replace Horvat or Miller. That debauchery forced Benning to go out and hunt down Miller to a 3 year contract while waiting for Markstrom to develop.

What is learned from all this nonsense? You best be careful when trading players playing important positions on your roster. All it really does is create a problem while trying to fix a problem. Round, round we go.

[Blob Mckenzie]

He never counts the picks they acquire. It fucks up his miserable grumbling.,


Now he's whining about them dealing Horvat. He hated Bo when he was here.

Is UWS a miserable grumbler??? I don't agree there

I wasn't talking about UW

[Chef Boi RD]

What I imagine will happen is Allvin will either entice a veteran UFA centre with a big overpayment like Benning had to with Ryan Miller or he will trade a major asset like a Willander, D-Pete or the 2025 first to get a centre. How do you see this playing out? The options are very limiting in trying to fix a very serious situation down the middle on the top two lines especially since we are losing Suter this summer. The situation is dire.

[UWSaint]

Remember, he basically flipped the entire organization overnight from having a rubbish defense…

To absolutely annihilating our centre slot (Horvat for Hronek and Miller for Pettersson and Mancini).

While one hand is bailing water out of the canoe the other hand is drilling holes.

Agree, Chef -- but this is sort of the inevitable consequence of a cap world where a team (1) has dead cap, (2) has players underperforming contracts, or (3) doesn't have significant ELC contributions (or others overperforming their contracts significantly). Most teams have one of these things to some degree; all three of these things were true for the Canucks this past season.

To the comment that the Canucks have a top 5 D in the league, I don't know that I'd go that far (I might, they do have IMO the league's best defenseman and that counts a ton), but it is certainly a very good defense. They were seventh in the league in terms of fewest shots against; their middle of the pack rank for goals against was due to subpar goaltending (tied for 8th worst save percentage). The D+structure benefit is neutralized by objectively mediocre goaltending, making the Lankinen signing (and fandom on this board) and trade Demko sentiments all the more puzzling. To be sure, an unhealthy and never locked in Demko get the Canucks where they are, but a "good" Lankinen get the Canucks to the same place. Roll the dice on Demko's health -- if you get fortunate, you have above average, quite possibly well above average goaltending.

Personally, I wouldn't keep robbing Peter to pay Paul in the absence of one of these cheap D prospects clearly matching Hronek or MP3 -- and that's very unlikely in the near term. Myers might be matched, but $3M is not bad if he is demoted to 3d pairing and there are better places to free up $3M on the payroll if need for an acquisition.

Like it or not, the D and commitment to two way play from the forward group is the teams comparative advantage in the Pacific. They don't best Vegas in this regard IMO, but by and large, the Canucks roster as currently constructed has a far better chance winning by neutralizing an opponents' strength than by exploiting an opponents' weaknesses. I don't prefer that as a fan for entertainment value, but objectively, there is a *ton* to be said for leaning into strengths vs. reducing that strength to be more balanced and therefore end up mediocre in all things. Comparative advantages, in my view, should be maximized.

That said, there's no question the Canucks will have to score a bit more and are losing 50 goals in Suter and Boeser. Something in off season needs to be done about that -- though offensive talent doesn't have to come at the expense of a defensive game, and if I am the Canucks and I don't want to water down the only comparative advantage they have, I am looking for guys who don't generate offense through cheating the play, and I am looking for guys who have above average defensive zone intelligence and will play to the system. Bonus if they win more than their fair share of battles. No matter what they do in the market for goals, without some internal improvement from the underperformers (especially EP40, but also Hoglander and Joshua) or developing prospects (Raty, Sushi primarily), the Canucks will be an uninsipring bubble team -- likely in the playoffs with outstanding goaltending, outside looking in all other scenarios.

[donlever]

Interesting you have Hughes rated over Makar.

I understand the Canuck fan rose colored glass "thang" (which "some" have been guilty of over the years when defending certain layers of "our guys" - Linden/Naslund for instance) but would not expect it from you (and do not believe it to be true for clarity sake).

NHL players were recently surveyed on "leagues top defender" status and the end result was overwhelming the opposite of your take.

I am not going to look for it but something like 70% Makar while Hughes was at 7% if I recall correctly.

Also, you stole my Peter/Paul line.





Edit:

Just recalled, it was on the NHLPA site.

[Cornuck]

Biased group, since Hughes makes fools out of them.

[UWSaint]

Interesting you have Hughes rated over Makar.

I understand the Canuck fan rose colored glass "thang" (which "some" have been guilty of over the years when defending certain layers of "our guys" - Linden/Naslund for instance) but would not expect it from you (and do not believe it to be true for clarity sake).

NHL players were recently surveyed on "leagues top defender" status and the end result was overwhelming the opposite of your take.

I am not going to look for it but something like 70% Makar while Hughes was at 7% if I recall correctly.

Also, you stole my Peter/Paul line.





Edit:

Just recalled, it was on the NHLPA site.

I'm with the 7%! Well, I think this year could go either way, but I think Hughes was interrupted considerably with the injury.

Of course it could be rose colo_red glasses, but it isn't just fandom. And it isn't not watching Makar -- the Avs and Jets are the two teams I watch the most after the Canucks, so I've see a lot of Makar. And I think Makar is great -- the second best.

Why Hughes?

Hughes controls the puck the most in the league. It isn't close. And its nothing like I've ever seen -- it completely transforms the Canucks when he's on the ice. The possession is in all zones. Hughes ability to break pressure is exemplary.

Makar's great here, too -- among the best, but the difference is like the 2015 draft. Eichel was a first overall talent, but McDavid was generational. Hughes is generational in this category. The patience is usually for a purpose.

I also think I'd rather have Hughes in the half court defense part of the game, though neither are elite here (both have size issues that caps their peak but offset with good angling and their feet, both have improved over the years, I think Hughes more).

Why Makar?

Makar has a better shot and is a better goal scorer -- more efficient with his chances (though this year's shooting percentage was absurd). This is part a function of the Avs playing a more fluid game in the offensive zone, Makar more of a rover. This is sort of how Josi used to put up numbers -- I'm not knocking that -- in fact it is part due to the fact that Makar plays more opportunistically, part due to the Avs getting this the their best way to score goals.

Also, Makar's rush defense, whether backchecking and breaking up a chance or forward facing an odd man situation, is better than Hughes'.

--

I think that what tips me into the 7% category is simply how much different the game looks when Hughes is on the ice. He is controlling everything, and he makes opponents look silly (or hopeless) nearly every shift. But since the purpose of the game is to score goals (at least a primary purpose on par with keeping them out), its fair to argue that Makar's ability to more efficiently convert scoring opportunities (and have his teammates coverts the opportunities he contributes to creating) while creating nearly as many as Hughes would be a deciding factor. Scoring > possessing -- for the most part. (Possession has positive second order effects -- though all opportunities and possession will end with a goal, stoppage, or the other team having the puck). Maybe its the better argument and I have rose colo_red glasses -- but can we agree they are 1, 2?

[UWSaint]

Also interesting Hedman is still third. Its been my impression that the media underrated Hedman terribly, and I guess many players agree. The only thing Hedman has over Hughes and Makar is that he's a better player when the other team has the puck. I think he would still thrive in the league as a defensive defensemen if he didn't have the superior offensive and puck skills.

[Meds]

Marcus is just OK, that’s all I gotta say, just ok. He ain’t great he ain’t bad. Just the mushy middle mid pairing.

Let’s put it this way, remove Hughes from that group how good is the group? He makes the others look better than they are. IMO the D is not top 10 in the league, but somewhere between 10 and 15

The forward group is absolutely atrocious. I have no words, I’m perplexed. And when Allvin let’s Boeser and Suter walk for free in July and sign some other mushy middle UFA we will still be an atrocity at forward.

Pettersson would be a second pairing guy on just about every team in the league. Maybe on the deepest blueline in the league he would be the #5.....but he would still get 18-20 minutes per night on that roster.

Name 14 blueline corps that are better than the Canucks.

[Meds]

Chytil, Markus Pettersson and Victor Mancini for JT Miller and a 1st is not the worst trade in team history considering the extenuating circumstances with JT losing his shit

I wouldn't count the first -- it came in and went out.

To NYR: Miller + Brannstrom + Dorrington
To VAN: Chytil + Mancini + 1st

To PIT: 1st + Heinen + Desharnais
to VAN: Pettersson + O'Connor

Ergo, the acquisition of Chytil, Pettersson, Mancini, and O'Connor, cost Vancouver Miller and the 1st rounder that they spent Miller to acquire.

You have to count the 1st because without it you don't have Pettersson. If you don't count the 1st then the statement becomes: Chytil, Mancini, and a 1st for JT Miller.

Either way you spin it, the extenuating circumstances do indeed suggest that it was far from the worst trade in team history.

What I don't like is that, because of the trajectory the team was on, and the lack of any meaningful impact top-6 forward in the return, the Canucks should have gambled that they could acquire Pettersson in free agency, kept the 1st, and used Heinen and Desharnais as fodder at the deadline for picks. Then gone into this draft holding a pair of 1st rounders and attempted that blueline restructuring at that time and/or in free agency. Considering that Pettersson did not get a max term deal in the extension he signed, the Canucks would have been in the running for his services.