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Will the Canucks go and a four game loosing streak?

Poll ended at Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:59 pm

yes
6
60%
no
4
40%
 
Total votes : 10

Postby tantalum » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:21 am

Kowch wrote:I feel bad for Auld. Here's someone who is essencially a rookie, thrust into the starting role for a team where the expectations are set on winning the cup. With fans who are just frothing at the mouth to crticize any kind of weak goal. A number of people clamouring for Nonis to pull the trigger on some kind of deal are the same people who wanted Auld to be the starter in the first place. You got your wish...


I for one was never really advocating Auld as a starter. I do think he will be O.K. in that role and provide goaltending that is no different from what Cloutier provided...up and down and in the end average. i also think he would not be as bad as Cloutier come playoff time. Though for him I think it would be better to as a backup or perhaps as a 1B type of guy. He's played well when you do consider what his role was supposed ot be and what his role has been. But I do think the goaltending needs to be addressed. I thought that qith Cloutier between the pipes and i think that now. As i said it's Nonis' call whether to go for a 1A/B type of situation or to go for a multi year solution allowing Auld to continue to develop for a another couple of years and have him be ready to run with the ball when he's 26/27 years of age.

Auld (while not playing in his best game) did have a number of great saves last night. While having a goalie that can continually bail out a team (such as Brodeur) would be nice, WE DON'T HAVE THAT. In fact, we've never had one. The other 5 guys on the ice have to be responsible for not letting their opponants walk in at will. Auld has been solid - not spectacular. And because the TEAM has lost a few in a row we're railing on the goal tender. Last I checked, hockey is a team sport and it takes everyone on the ice to contribute to the win both on offense as well as on defense. And while Auld should have had the shorthanded goal, he let a goal in on a save he SHOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO MAKE. Where the hell were the other 5 guys? And that was the second time in 2 games we let in a shorthanded goal.


I agree it really seemed to me that 9 nights out of 10, 3 or 4 of those goals first 5 goals find a way to hit him. It was a case of what you can't see you can't save and he didn't see much of 4 of the first 5 goals. This night however he was jusut a split second too slow in getting into the proper position to have those pucks hit him. Those things happen to every goaltender. I'm not that worried as over the course of the season he has played well. In the previous 5 games he had very good numbers so it's not really a trend at this point that he is undergoing a decline in his play IMO. So as I said there is no need for Nonis to panic but certainly an Auld/Oullet tandem is not going to cut it come game 65 of the season and the playoffs. And I think if nonis can reasonably address the position for the next 2/3 years that is what he should do. He can always grab a 1A/1B type of vet, but it's time to be patient and see if he can find that multi-year goaltender and allow Auld to refine his game as backup.

While I agree that Nonis should be looking to make tweaks to help get the team back on track, some of the wholesale changes being suggested are way out of line unless you're ready to gut the team and start building again from scratch.


I do think morrison has to pull his head out of his rear soon or he is going to force nonis to make a move as Morrison is getting completely outplayed by henrik at this point and he just doesn't seem to be on the same wavelength of anybody. I also think the depth on this team is terrible and very much needs to be addressed. I think they are missing that Mike Keane type presence in the locker room and on the bottom two line. They are missing a physical SOB to anchor the third pairing.
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Postby magnum44 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:45 am

With the cap situation we are in I still think DN has to be patient. We need that room for injuries and the longer we can wait the more valuable it is. I'd rather squeak into the playoffs and make one or two solid moves at the deadline than get some bandaids right now and hope no one else gets hurt.
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Postby rikster » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:07 pm

First of all, I had thought the Nucks would be inconsistant in their play until after Christmas but I never envisioned the lack of focus that we have seen so far this year...

The reason I had thought they would appear disinterested for the first 3 months of the season is that they are a team which clearly has its eyes on the post season and the illusion that the new rules would make it easier to for them to win...

Once the finish line becomes easier to see the team should get its focus and intensity levels back to where they need to be to be more consistant.....

Secondly, the worries I have over Aulds game are no different than they were after his first NHL win in Dallas.....

Clumsy, slow, awkward in his footwork with nothing special about his game other than he is big and seems to be in control at all times, maybe to a fault.....Showing some passion or emotion from time to time is not a bad thing.....

I agree Grizz, not only is it tough being a number 1 in the league, but even moreso in Vancouver which is why I smile when I read a poster offering save percentages or GAA to justify their positions....

The team needs to carry its goaltenders right now , having said that Auld has let in some goals from areas on the ice that should never go in which is a concern......

I envy the Oilers in that they are at the point in their evolution that the Nucks were a few seasons ago when Burkey gave his infamous speach at this time of the season......

Way back then, you couldn't count on a Nuck win but you could count on the Nucks being the hardest working team from minute one to minute 60...

This team reminds me more of the Bure, Molginy and Messier years when they were long on talent and woefully short on effort......

Take care......
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Postby Grizzly » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:33 pm

No matter who's in net the "fans" tear them down because they're not getting shutouts every night.


Seven goals against edmonton is a far cry from a shut out ... in fact i don't think we have seen a shut out all year. Auld did make some decent saves last nite and there were some goals he didn't have a chance on ... but ... he let in some weak goals at key moments. Since he has assumed this #1 role his play has deteriorated and it is obvious he is not ready for the #1 spot.

I feel bad for Auld. Here's someone who is essencially a rookie, thrust into the starting role for a team where the expectations are set on winning the cup. With fans who are just frothing at the mouth to crticize any kind of weak goal. A number of people clamouring for Nonis to pull the trigger on some kind of deal are the same people who wanted Auld to be the starter in the first place. You got your wish...


Yes he is essentially a rookie and that is also why it is not good to put this much pressure on him when Vancouver is in a position to challenge for the cup.

Sure we wanted to see what Auld could do as a starter ... and .. at this point it doesn't look like he is completely ready. No ... he hasn't had alot of time to "prove" himself but then again the window of opportunity for Van to win the Cup is also only so big

... so do we just say then oh well this is who we have lets do what we can with him and hopefully it works and he wins it for us... or do we say "hey Alex it doesn't look like you are quite ready now ... you maybe in a couple of years... but for now we have to make a move and take advantage of the organizations chances and window of opportunity to win the Cup. Your time maybe later"

... I feel bad for Auld too but we have to look at the big picture. I am not counting him out, I am saying right now he is not ready to be our #1 and we won't go anywhere in the playoffs with our goaltending situation the way it is.

Auld has been solid - not spectacular. And because the TEAM has lost a few in a row we're railing on the goal tender. Last I checked, hockey is a team sport and it takes everyone on the ice to contribute to the win both on offense as well as on defense


Sorry .. Auld has NOT been consistently solid ... his play has been shaky and his stats have been dropping. Yes the team in front of him hasn't been playing as well as they should have but he has not made the saves when they have needed it either... at times the goalie MUST carry the team.... especially if you consider yourself a championship team.

Maybe then we just go with Auld and take the next few years to continue to develop him and bring him along and hope that the rest of team is capable then to win it with him ... I think not !! ... the opportunity is now for Vancouver and that is why DN kept the core together during this last lock out year !! To let it go because we are unwilling to find a capable #1 goalie is foolishness. If that is the case and DN wants to wait for Auld then he should start floating his resume ...

Grizz
Last edited by Grizzly on Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby tantalum » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:40 pm

rikster wrote:I agree Grizz, not only is it tough being a number 1 in the league, but even moreso in Vancouver which is why I smile when I read a poster offering save percentages or GAA to justify their positions....


Actaully I used wins, GAA, and SV% for Auld just to satisfy you. The fact is Auld hasn't been bad he has been average. Simple as that. And really not so long ago you continually brought up well Cloutier gets wins. Yep he does and so does Alex Auld with a win percentage just as good as Cloutiers has been. If anything it just proves what myself and others have said for quite sometime....Cloutier isn't anything special. many other goaltenders can provide the same goaltending. So really I smile when people want to ignore the facts and ignore SV% is part of those facts...and more to the point that SV% is very much the indicator that ranks goaltenders play accurately provided the sample size is large enough. Look at the current rankings...it reads top to bottom who has been playing the best goal this season. Hasek, Ferenadez, Lundqvist, Gerber, Vokoun, Joseph, Gerber, Kiprusoff...those have been the best goaltenders this year for the entire 30 or so games this season each team has played. And looky looky it's pretty much the same ranking you get when you sort by SV%. Garon struggeld early one but has come on huge his past 10 games or so and pulled himself up among the top 15 for the year, Biron is still low because quite frankly before this run of his he was terrible (probably due to lack of playing time and rust). Guys like Brodeur, Weekse, Dipietro, Belfour, Esche, Theodore, Raycroft etc haven't been good at all and looky looky their SV% puts them near the bottom of the starters. Auld finds himself pretty much middle of the pack among starters right now...pretty much where he should be based on his play and the play of the other goaltenders in the league. And again you can do it for any year and when you do rank those SV% you will get a very good indicator of what goaltenders were consistently good between the pipes and which ones weren't...and it will not ever be dependent on the teams that those guys play for. Certainly there is a correlation that teams with better goaltender play tend to win more games but ther eis not a correlation between how a team plays defensively to how good a goaltenders SV% is (or rather at the most there is very little effect). You will also notice that the teams that are typically thought of as poor defensively give up more chances also give up the most shots and the ones that are good give up less shots and scoring chances. Right now Vancouver is 18th in that department and based on play this year that is about where I'd put them...right around 15th or so. Not great and not atrocious like Florida or Pittsburgh or Toronto.

The team needs to carry its goaltenders right now , having said that Auld has let in some goals from areas on the ice that should never go in which is a concern......


I don't disagree. The rest of the roster has to step up. Namely the core group has to step up in times of injury.

I envy the Oilers in that they are at the point in their evolution that the Nucks were a few seasons ago when Burkey gave his infamous speach at this time of the season......


I again agree. Auld is at the same stage perhaps a bit further ahead of where Cloutier was when he became a canuck...not so coincidentally when he was 24.

Way back then, you couldn't count on a Nuck win but you could count on the Nucks being the hardest working team from minute one to minute 60...


Again agreed.

This team reminds me more of the Bure, Molginy and Messier years when they were long on talent and woefully short on effort......


Once again agreed. The team needs a shake up. They had some nice wins but in the end they can't manage to put more than a 1 or 2 game effort together. 34 games into the season and still we wait for signs of consistent play out of this core.
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Postby tantalum » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:47 pm

Grizzly wrote:
Sorry .. Auld has NOT been consistently solid ... his play has been shaky and his stats have been dropping. Yes the team in front of him hasn't been playing as well as they should have but he has not made the saves when they have needed it either... at times the goalie MUST carry the team.... especially if you consider yourself a championship team.


I think he's been as consistently solid as say Cloutier has been. Which of course is to say the only thing consistent with him is his inconsistency. I think most people realise that the goaltending situation has to change and be addressed. It should have already been done before.. But Auld for what the expectations and the role he has been thrust into has done his job well. Is it good enough for this team at this time? no probably not. BUt let's not throw the baby out with the bath water here. Auld has shown significant promise that given another couple of years of development he may just be the canucks Vokoun...another guy who was thrust into a starting role at times with Dunham injuries or poor play but didn't exactly take the league by storm in that role at 24. He wasn't ready to assume full time duties until the year he turned 27 (26 to start...i.e. Auld has 2 years to yet to be that age).

As for falling stats...you'll actually find that in his starts prior to Cloutiers term injury and his stats after (up until last night) were virtually identical.
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Postby Grizzly » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:01 pm

BUt let's not throw the baby out with the bath water here. Auld has shown significant promise that given another couple of years of development he may just be the canucks


And thats what i am saying ... .I am in no way supporting dumping Auld ... I think he has a great future with us ... but for now ... for this team to win ... we HAVE to improve our goaltending ...

If we want to "build" our winning team around Auld then we should be dumping veterans and picking up young players so they all gel at the same time ... this team though is made up of veterans (some youth) and we also need a veteran #1 goalie to win ... not a down the road maybe.

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Postby Cookie La Rue » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:07 pm

Kowch wrote:These threads are a perfect example of why Vancouver is such a shitty place to be a goalie. No matter who's in net the "fans" tear them down because they're not getting shutouts every night. Wow. Auld had a bad game and now we're going to run him out of town. Nice.

I feel bad for Auld. Here's someone who is essencially a rookie, thrust into the starting role for a team where the expectations are set on winning the cup. With fans who are just frothing at the mouth to crticize any kind of weak goal. A number of people clamouring for Nonis to pull the trigger on some kind of deal are the same people who wanted Auld to be the starter in the first place. You got your wish...

Auld (while not playing in his best game) did have a number of great saves last night. While having a goalie that can continually bail out a team (such as Brodeur) would be nice, WE DON'T HAVE THAT. In fact, we've never had one. The other 5 guys on the ice have to be responsible for not letting their opponants walk in at will. Auld has been solid - not spectacular. And because the TEAM has lost a few in a row we're railing on the goal tender. Last I checked, hockey is a team sport and it takes everyone on the ice to contribute to the win both on offense as well as on defense. And while Auld should have had the shorthanded goal, he let a goal in on a save he SHOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO MAKE. Where the hell were the other 5 guys? And that was the second time in 2 games we let in a shorthanded goal.

While I agree that Nonis should be looking to make tweaks to help get the team back on track, some of the wholesale changes being suggested are way out of line unless you're ready to gut the team and start building again from scratch.

Oh guys, i don't know where you take your time to write so much witty statements. :mrgreen:

I agree most with Kowch's. :thumbs:

To your favour i think everyone has valid points and i know you all make your minds up because of our team and that's great.

Imo we have to be patient, trust in this group and give them a real chance because in comparison to all other teams we have some expectations and that's the final goal.

Don't kick them out of town too early. Just believe. :cheers:
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Postby tantalum » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:21 pm

Cheers folks. I'm off for a week or so of vacation. Have fun.
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Postby magnum44 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:21 pm

yeah its frustrating to watch sometimes, but I think patience is the mantra we all need to get used to. i think its pretty obvious most of these guys are just coasting through the season wainting for the playoffs. As long as it doesn't destroy his confidence, letting Auld get shelled and pressuring him to win games for you is probably good for his development.
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Postby Kowch » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:21 pm

Thanks for the vote of confidence Cookie! :)

Look Grizzly, I've said on here (several times actually) that Nonis and his staff need to take a look at the goaltending position to see if we're able to make an improvement there. Getting a someone else in there (Lalime for example) just for a change isn't necissarily the best move. Change for changes sake can often come back to bit you in the ass. Hey man, if we can land Luongo (a goalie I get to see often - and in fact tonight against Buffalo - and one I think would help put us over the top) by all means it something we need to look at. But again, under the cap and with the amount of room we really don't have, it's something we have to weigh against making what might end up being a bad move.

Any move we make to get in a true #1 netminder is going to require giving up a piece of the core for two reasons:

#1 - the team giving up the goalie will want something valuable in return
#2 - need to make room under the cap

Getting a band-aid solution isn't what we need. If we're going to make a splash by getting our all-star goalie, we're going to have to be committed to that guy and realize that a big piece has to be moved off of our team. Conversely, if our guys can step up and start being responsible in their own end and helping out Auld/Oulette/Cloutier then we don't have to make such a drastic move.

And Auld _has_ been solid. He's not been outstanding (I think I've said this before) but as Tantalum said most nights he's in position and able to make the saves he needs to make. Is he stopping stuff like Hasek, Luongo, Brodeur, Cujo etc? No - he's not on that level (yet) and I never claimed he was. But he's been _decent_. You want to upgrade? Explain who we're going to land, who we're going to give up and how we're going to fit it under this years cap.

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Postby Tretiak » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:41 pm

i think the reason vancouver is a goalie graveyard is because vancouver's never had a goaltender that they could rely on to get them into the playoffs every year..

they haven't had a martin brodeur a dominik hasek or a patrick roy or curtis joseph..

mclean got hot for one playoff run, but that was 11, almost 12 years ago now..he was never a great goaltender during any other time.

canucks have always had offense and defense, but never goaltending..

a lot of teams have the same problems, admittingly. the kings haven't had a solid goaltender since kelly hrudey..but hockey's not the main focus there, so thing's slide a bit more than they do in vancouver.

the offense situation is fine as far as i'm concerned with the canucks....their defense seems iffy, so many times jovo got outmuscled by laroque last night in front of the net...and ohlund was nowhere to be seen.

but goaltending is their biggest hole.
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Postby Cookie La Rue » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:53 pm

Hey you fuckin' commie. :mrgreen:

(No offence, i like you. ;) )

but goaltending is their biggest hole.


I agree, but not the one and only reason. It's "Teamgeist". :twisted:

What would you do as a player when you know your goalie is not as strong as others ?

I would defend everything going towards our net. That' s for sure. I played defence most of my career.
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Postby Jyrki21 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:00 pm

Tretiak wrote:i think the reason vancouver is a goalie graveyard is because vancouver's never had a goaltender that they could rely on to get them into the playoffs every year..

While I agree with the gist of your message, the term 'goalie graveyard' is a red herring that Brian Burke never should have uttered. Vancouver fans react no differently than any other fans without superstar goaltending, and likewise teams without superstar goaltending also go through a number of auditions. The only past goalie that the fans were really all over was Potvin. It was not the fans' choice to move McLean (although it was overdue), Burke, Snow (who actually played very well for us), Irbe (who had a winning record on a 60-point team), Weekes (who showed flashes of brilliance), Essensa, Skudra (who was adquate and shone when Cloutier went down with injury) or Hedberg (who was more than accurate). Those were all Crawford decisions from Snow onward, so blame him if anyone. Part of the hostility toward the Cloutier situation comes from the fact that Crawford so arbitrarily decided to love the guy, when there's been little evidence that he has outperformed others that have been dumped.

I'm sure they're just as apprehensive in Edmonton, and no one jumps on the fans there. They're impatient in Montreal -- hell, their goalie won a Vezina and they've been ready to chase him out of town for years -- but no one seems to label them. The Flyers own organization ridiculously blames the keeper for everything that happens there, and no nickname. Fans in Detroit were the original complainers-about-goaltending (chased away Cheveldae and his replacement Essensa, bitched about Riendeau and Osgood, blamed Joseph for everything that wasn't his fault) but no one fingers them all the time either.

Ottawa -- a franchise which has mirrored us every step of the way -- also went through a goaltending revolving door for a number of years, even plateauing a bit with their own Cloutier called Patrick Lalime. But people don't jump all over Ottawa as a goalie graveyard.

It's just a silly thing (not blaming you, Tretiak, it's Brian Burke who started this snowball) which never should have gotten rolling in the first place.

Tretiak wrote:mclean got hot for one playoff run, but that was 11, almost 12 years ago now..he was never a great goaltender during any other time.

Not quite... McLean is usually considered the best goaltender in Canuck history, and was stable for quite a while. He had two all-star seasons (1989-90 and 1991-92), the latter of which he was first runner-up for Vezina. He would have won it, too, if he and Patrick Roy played in opposite conferences.
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Postby the toucan kid » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:11 pm

Meh, I can't say I think the team is playing that badly, but to be honest Auld needs to make a lot of those saves. Most NHL goalies and Auld in the past have been able to. Perhaps he's not ready for all this work yet?

Other then how the penalty kill looks out of wack, we're fine in my eyes. It doesn't help that our two main division rivals, are pretty much designed to topple teams like us and maybe there isn't a way to beat those guys with these players, but do we really want to build a team in their mold to match up with them? Maybe we'll have to in the next couple of years, but I still think this group when push comes to shove can get it done. In the regular season of course.
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