The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset with...

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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Diehard1 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:00 pm

I live in Toronto at the moment and let me say they are lucky here that the Canucks exist, because that's all they talked about on sports radio yesterday. Canucks, Canucks, Canucks from 8 am until 4 pm - and not one thing was complimentary except for Pierre Maguire.

Personally I'm ok with what has happened - Lu and $27 million just left, we get Markstrom who has a ton of promise and a decent 3rd/4th liner in Matthias who plays a position we don't have much depth in return. Sounds ok, and opens up a ton of cap space. Yep it's a bit scary that Lack and Markstrom are the goalies but Lack has been very good this year (better than Lu) and Markstrom has a ton of promise, just needs to keep improving.

Could be difficult for a year or two in the future if Lu's cap hit has to be retained, hopefully they pull what they just did with the Devils and decide to relax the rule. We need to keep in mind the Lu trade is just one of a few changes that are coming, I would really like to see what the team looks like after all is done before commenting on the job that has been done.

On Horvat, I watch a ton of OHL games given the centre ic package here includes them. He is an asbolute stud at this level, so smart on the ice and always in great position. Most of the goals he scores look easy, he's hard on the puck and bulls his way through other players. He's not going to wow you with skills like Domi (who makes more turnovers than anybody, but I digress) but he looks every inch an NHL player. I used to watch Hodgson in junior as well and Horvat's game will translate better to the big leagues; Horvat is also definitely a better player than Domi even though Domi has more points. He's on the ice in every situation while Domi still tries a ton of dangles and dekes which work well in junior but likely won't in the NHL.

I'm not sure he will be ready just yet, still needs to work on quickness but as far as hockey sense and knowledge of the game he's definitely there.
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Topper » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:33 pm

Diehard1 wrote:Domi still tries a ton of dangles and dekes which work well in junior but likely won't in the NHL.

LOL, where have I read that before?
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Strangelove » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:05 pm

Topper wrote:
Strangelove wrote:
Topper wrote:and now that the trade has happened, folks are raving about the great contract and cap hit Lungo has. :?


Nope, folks are saying it was a great contract Gillis signed Luongo to.

Folks are saying the league then changed the rules, turning said great contract into a shitty one.

Here yes, elsewhere on he web I'm right


At the time it was signed most of the web was saying the Canucks were cheating, circumventing the cap.
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Strangelove » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:08 pm

dbr wrote:
Strangelove wrote:Cap-hit @ $5.3m + no such thing as a Recapture Penalty = more movable than your idea.

Like I say though, the so-called "Luongo Rule" turned this contract from awesome to awful. .


I'm not so sure. Like I really am ambivalent on the subject but Jesus we're going to have dead cap space on the books until guys like Chris Tanev and Zack Kassian are at that age where you think long and hard about a contract with any significant term on it. Bo Horvat will probably have signed his last RFA deal before we're out from under this contract. So that's colouring my views a bit right now.

But anyway, I think the cap recapture rule probably scared away most teams that plan to continue to spend to the cap, but there are teams that don't necessarily fit that profile that went out and got goaltenders this year and there was never much credible information suggesting they had any interest in taking on a seven year commitment either.

A few years back I thought Luongo's deal was good because the threat of a goaltender worth much less than his cap hit was twice as far off in my mind as the reality has been. Who cares about a backup with a $5.3m cap hit when he makes $3m, or $1m, and is an asset to the loser franchises in the league, right?

That hasn't worked out and he's lost his starting job twice before his 35th birthday.

Nor does the cap benefit recapture rule explain the team's failure to anticipate the plethora of relatively cheap, relatively strong goaltending available and the resulting devaluation of the position. Nor for that matter the NTC that apparently stood in the way of past deals.

Ultimately I think the recapture rule was dirty pool on the part of the league, an attempt at sticking a thumb in the eye of GMs who didn't want to follow Gary's unwritten rules. But if you put that aside and just look at the effects the Luongo contract has had on this team I think you can make a compelling argument that it's the worst contract in team history (as I guess any retirement contract has plenty of potential to turn into).

I recall Mike Gillis saying at the time that goaltender was the perfect position for a lifetime deal, of course the Sedins had proposed 12 year deals for themselves at a similar cap hit around this time and been rebuffed by the team. What a difference that would have made in hindsight, giving the Sedins their retirement contracts and paying full value for an All Star goaltender on a medium term deal.


Dave, I was comparing Lou's contract (in a no Recapture world) to Vader's idea of a 7 year deal @ $7.5M per.

Lou was originally supposed to retire in 2018 with no penalties.
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Vader » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:10 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Even YOU are convinced he would be worth top dollar until around that age






A seven year deal would bring him to age 38 and would be done in 3 years from now. Do you not think the Canucks could move that contract and eat $1.5M a year and that would have been more palatable than 8 years and $4M ($26m * 15%) over that time? Certainly the player return would have been better.

Do honesty think the NHL was going to shut down the league for a year to get a salary cap in, and then allow owners and GM's to thumb their noses at that same cap? Of course those contracts were going to be punished...
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:29 pm

But Vader these same assholes that worked for the league also rubber stamped those contracts when they were registered. Only the Kovalchuk contract was penalized. It's hypocrisy really because if they felt this way about these contracts they should have done something at the time they were signed.
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby rats19 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:38 pm

Jerseys sentenced was reduced recently. Pick 30 th regardless of standings and half the fine back.
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Strangelove » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:20 pm

Vader wrote:A seven year deal would bring him to age 38 and would be done in 3 years from now. Do you not think the Canucks could move that contract and eat $1.5M a year and that would have been more palatable than 8 years and $4M ($26m * 15%) over that time? Certainly the player return would have been better.


Let's not forget we were comparing Lou's present contract in a no-recapture-penalty world to your idea.

Lou would've had played 8 years and retired versus your 7 year deal.

Lou would have had an actual salary of $6.7m versus your $7.5m actual salary.

Lou would've carried a $5.3m cap-hit versus your $7.5m cap-hit.

And yet you say your deal would've been more movable??

Ummm nope.

The non-grandfathered recapture penalty was ridiculous and no one predicted it.
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Vader » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:38 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:But Vader these same assholes that worked for the league also rubber stamped those contracts when they were registered. Only the Kovalchuk contract was penalized. It's hypocrisy really because if they felt this way about these contracts they should have done something at the time they were signed.


But nobody would be dumb enough to admit their real intentions, so the league couldn't really do much. But throw in a second lockout....well yeah.
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Vader » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:47 pm

Strangelove wrote:Lou would've had played 8 years and retired versus your 7 year deal.

Lou would have had an actual salary of $6.7m versus your $7.5m actual salary.

Lou would've carried a $5.3m cap-hit versus your $7.5m cap-hit.

And yet you say your deal would've been more movable??

Ummm nope.


Quick: What's Lunqvist's cap hit? Rinne's? Is Luongo in the same vacinity as those two?
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Strangelove » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:55 pm

Vader wrote:Quick: What's Lunqvist's cap hit? Rinne's? Is Luongo in the same vacinity as those two?


Oh stop it.

You lose.
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Topper » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:21 am

Strangelove wrote:At the time it was signed most of the web was saying the Canucks were cheating, circumventing the cap.

I know that, I am talking about in the here and now.

It may be too late to get rid of your aluminum pots.
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby dbr » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:02 am

Strangelove wrote:Dave, I was comparing Lou's contract (in a no Recapture world) to Vader's idea of a 7 year deal @ $7.5M per.

Lou was originally supposed to retire in 2018 with no penalties.


Yeah fair enough. I just wanted to read my own writing :look: and used your post as a jumping off point.

Using my super 20/20 hindsight though, a 5-6 year deal at the going rate for Luongo would look pretty excellent at this juncture.
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Strangelove » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:11 pm

Topper wrote:
Strangelove wrote:At the time it was signed most of the web was saying the Canucks were cheating, circumventing the cap.

I know that, I am talking about in the here and now.


Sounds to me like you weren't following the conversation Vader and I were having. Image
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Re: The Dark Indian's $0.02: Am I the only one not upset wit

Postby Topper » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:26 am

who?
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