The Fork in the Road

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

What road do you think the Canucks should, or need to, take?

Major rebuild
6
15%
Minor rebuild
5
13%
Significant retooling (5 or more roster spots)
14
36%
Minor retooling (4 or less roster spots)
10
26%
Minor tweak (this is a contender with some minor depth issues)
4
10%
 
Total votes : 39

The Fork in the Road

Postby Meds » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:55 pm

There has been a lot of talk lately about changes that are needed here in Vancouver. The trade rumor mills have included the Canucks as a team that could be in on just about every player of note, and really it is no surprise. Most of us thought that after the Kings bounced the Canucks in 5 games that some changes needed to be made, injuries, and the goaltending drama was a great distraction going into the shortened 2012-13 season, cast a smokescreen over the the issues and prolonged the perceived window of contention that this club had been enjoying. But now we are sitting 8th in the conference and a loss tonight would leave us a single point ahead of the Stars and Coyotes who would have 2 and 3 games in hand on us, respectively. So which way should Gillis steer this ship?

I'm somewhat torn myself, while I see the value of some of our players, I also see the potential pitfalls of hanging onto them. For the record I think that Henrik and Daniel are incredibly talented players who are willing to take a beating along the wall and strive to play a puck possession game which they are very good at. I do not think they are soft, nor do they lack heart. I do, however, think that they don't like to score the garbage goals and are too hung up on putting the puck in the net with fancy passing and trick plays. This has led to them becoming somewhat one-dimensional offensively and even teams that lack a strong, punishing, blueline corps can shut them down by not chasing them. I think that they are both the reason that our number one PP unit has run stagnated, and I don't see them as players who are willing to carry the puck to the net through traffic with any sort of intensity. I also see them as players who are hitting their mid-thirties and have 4 years remaining on their contracts that will pay them as middle of the pack top line forwards. I think they have earned that money based on the last 5-6 seasons, but I don't think they will be earning that pay grade going forward.

The final consideration for me when looking at this pair is that they are our top assets, and they can bring back the most in any trade that they are part of, this value will begin to diminish significantly over the next couple of seasons. Were they signed for 2 more years instead of 4, and to their previous $6.1M cap hit, then this is a moot point. But things are what they are and my opinion is that they should be shopped for some immediate help up front as well as futures.

With the Sedins in play the Canucks have the assets right now to make some trades that will make the team younger, but better equipped for the future. Making these moves right now could make the 2014-15 Canucks a playoff bubble hockey team, for even as long as 2 seasons. And while ownership and fans are loathe to consider that this recent contender could miss the playoffs, I think the excitement of shaking the foundations of this team coupled with watching some very talented youth develop, would more than offset the disappointment on the fan's side of things as the current brand of the Canucks on-ice product has become stale and boring.

But what are your thoughts?
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3332
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby The Brown Knight » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:08 pm

My response to this questions is as follows:

Don't do what Calgary and Toronto did in terms of remaining stupidly loyal to a core that was clearly stale and clearly passed its prime. The Leafs ended up missing the playoffs for 10 years, and the Flames will very likely break that record in a few years.

My opinion is that we do a Philadelphia Flyers style rebuild at minimum, and perhaps a complete overhaul at maximum.

So somewhere between a major re-tool and a complete rebuild.

To be conservative, I'll select 'Major Re-Tool'........but I think it needs to be more than that.

Age wise, this core isn't too horrible (although not ideal), but they are completely dead mentally. And it's been that way since the Cup Loss and 1 day resurgence on Jan 7 2012 in our revenge game.
"I post the Brown Way" ~ Connor McHindu"

The Dark Indian Rises
User avatar
The Brown Knight
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1037
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:42 am

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby SKYO » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:20 pm

Meds wrote:So which way should Gillis steer this ship?

I'm somewhat torn myself, while I see the value of some of our players, I also see the potential pitfalls of hanging onto them.

For the record I think that Henrik and Daniel are incredibly talented players who are willing to take a beating along the wall and strive to play a puck possession game which they are very good at. I do not think they are soft, nor do they lack heart.

This has led to them becoming somewhat one-dimensional offensively and even teams that lack a strong, punishing, blueline corps can shut them down by not chasing them.

I think that they are both the reason that our number one PP unit has run stagnated, and I don't see them as players who are willing to carry the puck to the net through traffic with any sort of intensity.

I also see them as players who are hitting their mid-thirties and have 4 years remaining on their contracts that will pay them as middle of the pack top line forwards.


Considering the Sedin's are our top line and just re-signed, there is no way they are getting moved, there is no behind the scenes problems, nothing.

This team's entire offense is carried by them, they have never really had good scoring support in their entire careers here in Vancouver once they were the teams top line, the best support they had was a falling down Raymond (2g in our cup run) with an elite Kesler and Shotgun Sammy, if this team ever got a formidable 2nd line with a sniper like Hossa or Jeff Carter on our 2nd line, when all healthy it's much more dangerous, and with Higgins _____ Hansen on our 3rd line, this team could be deadly in no time.

I would look to San Jose as a comparable, they trimmed some of the fat and brought along some youth (Couture, Hertl), that could be our Horvat, Shinkaruk in a year or two, I think developing our rookies should be top priority, as in time they could be more talented and definitely way more cheaper than trying to acquire aging/injury prone high priced vets.

And just recently.
Yet again, the San Jose Sharks had a competitive year, reaching the playoffs for the ninth consecutive season, though they suffered a seven-game loss to Los Angeles in the second round of the playoffs.

Off-Season Game Plan looks at a Sharks team that figures to be contenders again next year, but the window of opportunity is closing for the team's core.

While contract extensions could get worked out this summer, as it stands right now, Sharks veterans Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau, Joe Pavelski and Dan Boyle are all set to be unrestricted free agents at the end of the 2013-2014 season. With all but Pavelski (who is most likely to get extended) in their mid-30s at that point, the coming season could be the last best shot for this group to win.

"We're not a team that's going to miss the playoffs for five or seven years and go into a rebuild," GM Doug Wilson told CSN Bay Area. "We don't believe in that. We want to reset on the fly."

The Sharks have pieces in place that should allow them to remain competitive as they transition from a team led by Thornton and Marleau to one led by Pavelski, Logan Couture and Brent Burns, but if they are going to win a Stanley Cup in 2014, they're probably going to have to be aggressive in their attempts to add talent. http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=426196
User avatar
SKYO
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3452
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:34 pm

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Jovocop » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:22 pm

SKYO wrote:
Meds wrote:So which way should Gillis steer this ship?

I'm somewhat torn myself, while I see the value of some of our players, I also see the potential pitfalls of hanging onto them.

For the record I think that Henrik and Daniel are incredibly talented players who are willing to take a beating along the wall and strive to play a puck possession game which they are very good at. I do not think they are soft, nor do they lack heart.

This has led to them becoming somewhat one-dimensional offensively and even teams that lack a strong, punishing, blueline corps can shut them down by not chasing them.

I think that they are both the reason that our number one PP unit has run stagnated, and I don't see them as players who are willing to carry the puck to the net through traffic with any sort of intensity.

I also see them as players who are hitting their mid-thirties and have 4 years remaining on their contracts that will pay them as middle of the pack top line forwards.


Considering the Sedin's are our top line and just re-signed, there is no way they are getting moved, there is no behind the scenes problems, nothing.

This team's entire offense is carried by them, they have never really had good scoring support in their entire careers here in Vancouver once they were the teams top line, the best support they had was a falling down Raymond (2g in our cup run) with an elite Kesler and Shotgun Sammy, if this team ever got a formidable 2nd line with a sniper like Hossa or Jeff Carter on our 2nd line, when all healthy it's much more dangerous, and with Higgins _____ Hansen on our 3rd line, this team could be deadly in no time.

I would look to San Jose as a comparable, they trimmed some of the fat and brought along some youth (Couture, Hertl), that could be our Horvat, Shinkaruk in a year or two, I think developing our rookies should be top priority, as in time they could be more talented and definitely way more cheaper than trying to acquire aging/injury prone high priced vets.

And just recently.
Yet again, the San Jose Sharks had a competitive year, reaching the playoffs for the ninth consecutive season, though they suffered a seven-game loss to Los Angeles in the second round of the playoffs.

Off-Season Game Plan looks at a Sharks team that figures to be contenders again next year, but the window of opportunity is closing for the team's core.

While contract extensions could get worked out this summer, as it stands right now, Sharks veterans Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau, Joe Pavelski and Dan Boyle are all set to be unrestricted free agents at the end of the 2013-2014 season. With all but Pavelski (who is most likely to get extended) in their mid-30s at that point, the coming season could be the last best shot for this group to win.

"We're not a team that's going to miss the playoffs for five or seven years and go into a rebuild," GM Doug Wilson told CSN Bay Area. "We don't believe in that. We want to reset on the fly."

The Sharks have pieces in place that should allow them to remain competitive as they transition from a team led by Thornton and Marleau to one led by Pavelski, Logan Couture and Brent Burns, but if they are going to win a Stanley Cup in 2014, they're probably going to have to be aggressive in their attempts to add talent. http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=426196


I believe that this team needs a minor retool. Shipping out one-two defensemen and one-two forwards will kind of rejuvenate this team. I believe that the Sedins can still provide top-line offense but they clearly need support.

My list of Canucks for trading:

Forwards - Booth and/or Burrows
Defense - Edler and/or Bieksa
User avatar
Jovocop
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1737
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Hockey Widow » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:22 pm

Yes, I think the SJS model is a better one to follow. Like it or not the Twins are with us for 4 more years. We have made that commitment and so have they. We must, finally, build secondary scoring around them. Everything SKYO said is bang on.

It was what MG said was going to happen this season. OK, it didn't happen for whatever reasons. But he simply cannot use the injury excuse this year. He cannot say he needs one more season with this core to see what they can do when healthy. The problems are more systemic than that. Injuries unmask that. Yes, injuries certainly do matter but it really is more than that with this team.


The multiple NTC will not pose a problem. Only a select few players have a NTC to ensure they get to stay in that city. Most have one to get to control where they go and when they go. So a NTC won't prevent us from being able to move a player but it will impact the number of trading partners and the time of year a deal can be done. In that respect MG will be hand cuffed, but he will be able to move players should he choose.

Making changes to the core is not just about getting full value back. It is also about changing the culture, creating cap space, creating roster spots.

I think we have a very strong nucleus on defence so just one big change there. Our goaltending is above average, so we are fine there. It is the combination up front that we need to really tear down and build back up.
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3926
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Topper » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:04 pm

Let folks get healthy, a few contract expire and some draftees playing CHL come in next year.

A tweak here and there, all good.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
User avatar
Topper
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4792
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Earth, most days.

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Strangelove » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:46 pm

Where the hell was the "Stand Pat" option?? Image
____
The Ring Leader
User avatar
Strangelove
CC Legend
 
Posts: 7373
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:13 pm

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Meds » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:58 pm

Strangelove wrote:Where the hell was the "Stand Pat" option?? Image


Sorry Doc.....I thought you didn't go in much for polls.
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3332
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby givemeda411 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:37 pm

SJS model trades include:
Coyle + Setoguchi + 1st (Zac Phillips) for Burns and 2nd round pick (turned into D. Moore)
Heatley for Havlat
3rd round pick (Kurtis Gabriel??) for James Sheppard
Jamie McGinn for Galiardi + Winnik (one walked and the other traded for a low pick)
Murray for 2 2nd round picks
Handzus for 4th
Clowe for 2nd & 3rd pick....

The Burns trade was the only impact trade. Lost McGinn for nothing, and the rest is cleaning house.

The impact players they have are all drafted, Couture, Hertl, Nieto & Wingels
givemeda411
CC Rookie
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:20 pm

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby SKYO » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:09 pm

givemeda411 wrote:The Burns trade was the only impact trade. Lost McGinn for nothing, and the rest is cleaning house.

The impact players they have are all drafted, Couture, Hertl, Nieto & Wingels


Exactly what MG has to do, clean the fucking house, and it will be done with or without him if that team meeting is any indication, obviously nobody is liking the piss poor showing the team has shown this season, injuries or not, this team is playing horrible, sloppy defense, lacking heart (a bit) and just a real lack of talent overall.

We need our future impact players to start developing next season and for that to happen MG has to clean house and make some room for em.
User avatar
SKYO
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3452
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:34 pm

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Mondi » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:37 pm

Promote Torts to GM for offseason. Then give it to Gillman.

But seriously...most of the team is either hurt, playing hurt, or coming off serious injury. This year is a wash.

Of those that haven't been injured, most have been terrible, some have been benched.

We're getting good, but not outstanding goaltender. We're getting interesting coaching. And our GM is doing the usual (nothing).

Aside from all that, this team has too many sideshows and dramas to be competitive. You rarely hear about nonsense around top teams, they just go about their business quietly.

I'm up for firing the shit out of Gillis, hiring a respected hockey man, and unloading dead weight for picks. I'm also up for missing the playoffs this year and next if it means we get a shot at legitimate franchise players to build a team around. Horvat + '14 FRP + '15 FRP.

I'm not advocating the Calgary/Toronto model, or the Edmonton model. Think more Van 1997-1999 or Tamp Bay leading up to Stamkos, and Headman. I think the SJ/Philly model is a pipe-dream unless you think we can uncover Giroux or Couture mid to late in the first round.
User avatar
Mondi
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 822
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:02 pm

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Hockey Widow » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:40 pm

Exactly SKYO. We have to clear cap and more importantly roster spots. The kids have to be given a chance to play. We are no longer talented enough where we can let our kids develop, not that have been any to develop. While we clean hues let's get a few picks or prospects. Like I said earlier, on D and in net we are fine moving firwRd, even trading one of the top four. It's the entire forward group that needs rebuilding. We obviuosly will keep the twins and I think Kesler too, perhaps Higgins. Let's build around those four to start with. Not saying everyone else gets traded but clear some of them out and leg the kids play.

The window on the current core is closed but we have a chance to stay competitive and re-tool up front. It's offence we need, everyone has been saying that since the Boston series so the time has come to see what we have with the kids we drafted, well next season is the time.

If MG goes into next season with basically the same team and no room for the kids I will become RD's best friend! That thought scares the shit out of me so for my sake I hope MG does the right thing :mrgreen:

Shinkaruk and Horvat were good enough to make the team this year but MG got cold feet and traded for Dalpe and what's his name. I obviously have no idea how either would have done their rookie season but it would have to have been better that Dalpe and 9 other forwards. He promised change this year. He promised an infusion of youth. He chickened out. Last chance Mike, last chance.
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3926
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Diehard1 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:45 pm

Minor retool. There's obviously something wrong with a team that wins 4 of 25 games, but there are a number of valuable pieces on the team that could bring back good youth. It starts with the D where too many dollars are being spent, one of the big names needs to go.

Also need one or two of the wingers to go. Booth, Burr, Hansen, Kassian, Higgins, Daniel and potentially Santorelli is one too many and that's with nobody else coming in. Centres will remain Hank, Kes, Richardson, maybe Santorelli and maybe one or two of the kids.

There's a lot here to work with but the chemistry is all wrong. On Gillis and Torts to fix it. Over to you guys, time to make a move.
Diehard1
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:48 am

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Meds » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:49 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:If MG goes into next season with basically the same team and no room for the kids I will become RD's best friend! That thought scares the shit out of me so for my sake I hope MG does the right thing :mrgreen:


I think even Doc will be sitting on the bus beside Dude in that event.....
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3332
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby givemeda411 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:57 pm

So basically....

Daniel Sedin / Henrik Sedin / Zack Kassian
Hunter Shinkaruk / Bo Horvat / Ryan Kesler
Chris Higgins / Brendan Gaunce / Mike Santorelli
Tom Sestito / Brad Richardson / Jordan Schroeder

Dan Hamhuis / Kevin Bieksa
Jason Garrison / Chris Tanev
Ryan Stanton / Frank Corrado

Roberto Luongo
Eddie Lack
givemeda411
CC Rookie
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:20 pm

Next

Return to Canucks Corner Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 3 guests