Injury thread

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Re: Injury thread

Postby mathonwy » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:53 pm

Topper wrote:Curb your enthusiasm.

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Re: Injury thread

Postby Topper » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

mathonwy wrote:
Topper wrote:Curb your enthusiasm.

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Wooooooooooooooooooosh
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Re: Injury thread

Postby mathonwy » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:31 pm

Topper wrote:
mathonwy wrote:
Topper wrote:Curb your enthusiasm.

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Wooooooooooooooooooosh


Glad to see you contributing such informational posts to the board topdog.

:thumbs:
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Re: Injury thread

Postby SKYO » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:39 am

in two years or so you'll reap what you sow the time I said we should trade Tanev while his value is high...as he will be going through a lot upper body injuries in his career...I have foreseen it.
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Re: Injury thread

Postby mathonwy » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:16 am

SKYO wrote:in two years or so you'll reap what you sow the time I said we should trade Tanev while his value is high...as he will be going through a lot upper body injuries in his career...I have foreseen it.


Unless Tanev puts on some bulk.

Yes. Tanev is a prime candidate for getting injured as he gets older as currently, he really takes it on the chin when the hard forecheck comes. However, unless we're getting a very good rushing D-man back I think Tanev's upside far outweighs the risk of him getting injured when he gets older. You have to remember that he's only 24 and D-men don't really come into their own until 27/28.

I think it would take a lot to convince GMMG to let go of Tanev. Drouin would do nicely. Please and thanks!
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Re: Injury thread

Postby mathonwy » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:50 pm

Important question.

When does it stop being the players and start being the coach?

We all know that a big reason why players start playing shitty is because injuries and if I had all the time in the world, I would go through every single game this season and try to find some metric showing some kind of degradation in play of a player based on a particular hard impact event. But I don't have that type of time so lets just look at the facts.

Is it coincidence that Hamhuis start playing shitty about 2 weeks into Stanton's stint on the IR while playing ~28 minutes a game?

Is it coincidence that Hank, the NHL's ironman until THIS season, is now foobared for the rest of the season?

Is it coincidence that three of our four top 4 D are OUT WITH FUCKING INJURIES AT THE SAME TIME???

Is it coincidence that Jason Garrison looks like an AHL pylon right now?

Is it coincidence that we are on a 5 game losing streak and the last time this happened was in 1999???????

Or is it ... the system Torts is preaching. Shot blocking is a young man's game and the Canucks aren't a young team.

There really is too much coincidental injuries and coincidental shitty play happening all at once for it to be still be considered coincidental.
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Re: Injury thread

Postby Hockey Widow » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:12 am

We had a great December. When we decided to get tough in LA and our losing skid began. I think we lost our focus in the LA game. We are not a big team like LA, we are not a skill team like Chicago. We have zero identity about what type of team we are.

Injuries plagued us from the start and we simply do not have the depth to weather a barrage of injuries. Now our defence is decimated, totally to the point where we have to play Corrado and Sauve and we had to trade for Diaz. It does make a difference. With Hank out we have zero organizational depth to have adequate fill in. Add the loss of Santorelli and now Richards and we are simple a disaster. So yes, injuries do count but the biggest issue is lack of depth. In the run of 2011 we massaged the cap and were able to keep Bieksa and have room for Salo when he returned. Of course it helped to sit Edler and his back to make room for Salo but the point is we had some depth. That disappeared by the finals.

This was the year we were supposed to see some of our kids in the line up. The pick up of Dalpe and what's his name screwed any chance of that happening. I do like the Stanton waiver pick up. But I again think both Bo and Hunter showed enough to stick around for at least 10 games but MG made the Dalpe trade and sealed their fate. Big mistake in my book. I don't know if either of those kids would have had good seasons but I do know they have to be better than Dalpe and what's his name.
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Re: Injury thread

Postby mathonwy » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:46 am

Thank you HW for the always thoughtful reply.

So, we don't have the depth to weather all the injuries that have happened.

True depth is created by astute drafting beyond the 1st round and as you know, our organization has failed pretty miserably on that front in the last decade.

But back to the injuries. Do you think all of these injuries are a coincidence? That's the question. To my recollection, there has been no Canuck season like this EVER. There was 2006 where Salo and Ohlund got injured at the same time but our current Canuck team is absolutely decimated. Decimated, playing badly and unable to buy a goal. The only players that aren't crapping the proverbial bed are our goaltenders and if you think about it, they have the padding to block shots as that is their full time job.

So, considering all of this. Is it prudent to gut a team when realistically speaking, nobody really knows what this team is capable of because everyone is injured.

Torts might be the worst thing ever to have happen to our team. The unfortunate thing is, we won't know the truth until the summer when all the surgery reports start popping up.

Honestly, I am very apprehensive about trading anyone right now as I am still not convinced the entire core has suddenly gotten bad all at the same time. If everyone was healthy and this was happening, it would be a different story. But that's not the case.
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Re: Injury thread

Postby Hockey Widow » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:54 am

This isn't a sudden decline. Since 2011 we have been declining. Injuries have always plagued us to some extent. Last year we had no centres until Kesler returned. We have been blessed with great goaltending. Mostly on the back of Luongo. CS and now Lack have been terrific b/u for us.

The injuries to Santorelli and Hank have nothing to do with the Torts style. Burrows injury had nothing to do with Torts, he got hit by a puck being cleared, not shot blocking. The injury Stanton had had nothing to do with Torts.

JS, yes he blocked a shot. Burrows too, his first injury shot blocking but he blocked shots before Torts got here. Bieksa, don't know about his injury. Richards, don't know about his injury. I mean the biggest thing with Torts is shot blocking but how many of our players have been injured doing that?

If a player is injured on the forecheck or in giving or taking a hit that's not on Torts. That's hockey.

Where I agree that Torts may have trouble is in how many minutes are top players play. Over the course of a year that is a toll especially on players like Kesler. He is due soon for another injury. Torts also should bench Hank. He is obviously hurt and is at risk of further injury. They should also be telling him he can't go to Sochi.

We don't have the depth to fill in for all these players. That is on MG and his drafting.

I don't advocate a cleaning of the house at all. But I do think, and most of us have talked about this for two years, we need a true top six who can score, we need a true 3rd line centre or one who can centre the second line allowing Kesler to slide down and we need a PP quarter back puck moving d'man. We have an over abundance of bottom six type players and dead weight in Booth.

I advocate trading 1-2 of Burrows, Hansen, Higgins and getting rid of Booth. I advocate trading one of our top 4 on d. I want to see 2-3 kids in the line up next year. I want MG to concentrate on getting the player or players who can fix our PP.

We have Richardson for one more year and Santorelli has earned himself a spot next year. He is versatile,can play centre or wing, move up and down in the line up and kills penalties. He is cheap. I would offer up Edler and Hansen and a pick for Kane. Maybe an over payment but the type of top six we need now. I would try and trade Burrows at the deadline. He is what teams need in the playoffs for his defensive abilities and his work on the PK. having term left might make him attractive to a team like Pittsburgh or Washington or Tampa or any number of Eastern teams. I don't see him fitting so much in the West. I think Burrows on the market for trade deadline would get us, not only cap space moving forward, but a good prospect and or a pick. Maybe he ends up being a dump. But I want change, not a blow up. If MG doesn't make some bold changes we will keep declining and we will see a blow up in 1-2 years.

Hell I love Luongo and the prospect of Lack being to go to guy scares me but if we could trade him to Florida for a decent return I'd do that. But that's getting into blow up territory.

None of this is on Torts.
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Re: Injury thread

Postby Topper » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:45 am

Thanks HW.

Injuries occured after the decline started.

December was a fattening up month on weaker teams. Confidence was built, trust in team mates was built. All of it lost now.

The game is being played a split second faster than the Canucks are thinking it right now. No one is playing with their head up and aware of where their team mates are. Watch them stare at the blades of their sticks as they carry the puck, lift their heads and look around before passing. The time it takes to lift the head and look, the passing lanes are closed. On the rush, the shooting lane/angle is also lost in that split second. All this is amplified on the PP.

Confidence and trust that the team mate will be there is shot.

The player you, HW say we need, top six scorer, 3rd line centre, PP QB are what every team needs are the best are usually developed internally. Top six scorer cost a fortune on the market as does a PP QB. Thirdline centre is a young player working his way up the line up, as Kesler did, or a vet working his way down the line up, Malhotra.

What I find odd in all of this is I am not genuinely surprised by where Vancouver sits in the standings. With re alignment and the cap constraints this season, I really didn't expect much better. The on ice entertainment product and effort I did expect to be better. How much did GMMG over sell the team to ownership?

Much of Torts game is based on one on one puck battles with a zone while defending behind their blueline. There is no confidence in the one on one puck battle that are often won on shear will. Deep in their own end, players are caught out of their zones and another leaves his responsibility to cover and all hell breaks loose.

On the positive, Frankie and Yann are looking unnoticeably solid as injury call ups.
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Re: Injury thread

Postby Listercat » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:21 am

This team looks tired. I think Torts has over played the top guys and that coupled with the travel has caught up with them. AV managed the players minutes knowing that over the course of a season the travel fatigue would wear them down if they played too many minutes. The very successful road trip before Christmas was the turning point. Torts has not coached in the West and it appears no one warned him about travel or he has ignored them.

The fatigue is also mental and this leads to mistakes and injuries. The "split second" Topper mentioned becomes longer and the panic threshold changes. Players begin to "cheat" on their positioning to conserve energy and a own zone Chinese fire drill ensues.

Injuries are a fact of the game and every team suffers with them over the course of a season. With a salary cap system there is only so much management can do to provide"depth". These depth players are not going to replace the top line winger who is injured for 40 games. When a team is missing 4 of its roster D men no depth is going to maintain the level of play expected from the injured players.

The Booth failure and its use of cap space has been the biggest thorn in the team's side just as the Ballard one was before. Both these moves severely tied the team's hands despite looking good "on paper" when they were done.
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Re: Injury thread

Postby dbr » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:29 am

Listercat wrote:This team looks tired. I think Torts has over played the top guys and that coupled with the travel has caught up with them. AV managed the players minutes knowing that over the course of a season the travel fatigue would wear them down if they played too many minutes. The very successful road trip before Christmas was the turning point. Torts has not coached in the West and it appears no one warned him about travel or he has ignored them.


He talked about it before the season, even.

It seems like he thought he could ride his best players and make up for it with as many rest days as possible for the team, obviously it's debatable whether that's worked out (although the fact that we're discussing it in January could be a sign that it's not debatable at all) but the other impact is perhaps the worst talent to powerplay conversion ratio in the league and everyone is chalking it up to a lack of practice time.
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Re: Injury thread

Postby mathonwy » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:05 am

We are definitely on the same page with regards to needing to trade certain parts of the team for pieces we need. It just sickens me to read posts advocating trading everyone including the kitchen sink and those posters not really acknowledging the impact that injuries have on a player's performance.

Hockey Widow wrote:None of this is on Torts.


This is where I disagree though. None means 100% and I am of the opinion that Torts has some culpability in creating the situation we are currently in.

My criticism of Torts are:

- He has mismanaged the minutes of our top guys.
Whether its because of external pressures (GMMG/Aquilinis pressuring him to win now), internal ego issues, or personnel issues (looking at you Mike) or a combination of all three, nobody knows except for Torts. Regardless of the reason, I believe it's irresponsible and in the long run, it's detrimental to the player himself.

A recent example of this is last night. Seeing Hank in the state that he was in last night was a bit sickening and there is no way he should have been on the ice regardless of what Hank personally wanted to do. Hank played 20+ minutes last night and was one good body check away from getting carted away to the ER. Winning is a secondary thing when it comes to player safety.

As well, the whole Kassian situation is rather mind boggling. If there's a player that is aching to be ridden like a donkey for 20+ minutes a game, its Kassian's big body and his toothless grin. Instead, Kassian is treated like a child and punished for mistakes by having ice time taken away from him while Kesler and the Sedins are given more and more minutes.

- He has placed our bread and butter point getters (the Sedins) in situations where they are more likely to be injured (the PK).
At the time, I was in support of this as I bought into his explanation of getting the Sedins into the game. Now that I see the after effect, I'm not so sure. Being on the PK can only increase the wear and tear on a player's body and the Sedins aren't built like Shea Weber or Jerome Iginla. It's my gut feeling that there are a heck of a lot of unreported injuries right now and being on the PK only increases the probability of injury occurring. Again, just a gut feeling with no stats to back it up.

-
These two areas are where I feel Torts holds some responsibility for the current injury situation and overall crappiness of the team.
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Re: Injury thread

Postby Meds » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:32 pm

mathonwy wrote:Important question.

When does it stop being the players and start being the coach?



Well considering we saw these same players start to decline and lose all confidence in themselves under the previous coaching regime, I would have to say that your question is irrelevant at this point.

As for all the talk about Torts system and his coaching philosophy being a problem, well people have quickly forgotten that Tortorella won the last Stanley Cup in the previous dead puck era with a team that boasted some serious offensive skill. The lightning weren't a grind it out team in 2004, they had a pretty dynamic offense that included some skill players who preferred to find their success through finesse rather than just gutting it out. Once those skill guys bought into the Torts work ethic the Lightning got it done.

I don't think head coaches are responsible for the development of the skill game at this level. I think they preach the work ethic and system while the players themselves with, perhaps, trainers/assistant coaches/personal coaches, work on their "moves". In that regard Tortorella might be a very good option for a team that is heading into re-tool/rebuild mode. The strides that Kassian has taken this season look pretty good on Tort's resume for working with young talent.

I honestly can't think of a team that has won the Stanley Cup with an offense that was driven by players who play like Hank and Daniel. Just sayin'.....
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Re: Injury thread

Postby Meds » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:44 pm

mathonwy wrote:We are definitely on the same page with regards to needing to trade certain parts of the team for pieces we need. It just sickens me to read posts advocating trading everyone including the kitchen sink and those posters not really acknowledging the impact that injuries have on a player's performance.

Hockey Widow wrote:None of this is on Torts.


This is where I disagree though. None means 100% and I am of the opinion that Torts has some culpability in creating the situation we are currently in.

My criticism of Torts are:

- He has mismanaged the minutes of our top guys.
Whether its because of external pressures (GMMG/Aquilinis pressuring him to win now), internal ego issues, or personnel issues (looking at you Mike) or a combination of all three, nobody knows except for Torts. Regardless of the reason, I believe it's irresponsible and in the long run, it's detrimental to the player himself.

A recent example of this is last night. Seeing Hank in the state that he was in last night was a bit sickening and there is no way he should have been on the ice regardless of what Hank personally wanted to do. Hank played 20+ minutes last night and was one good body check away from getting carted away to the ER. Winning is a secondary thing when it comes to player safety.

As well, the whole Kassian situation is rather mind boggling. If there's a player that is aching to be ridden like a donkey for 20+ minutes a game, its Kassian's big body and his toothless grin. Instead, Kassian is treated like a child and punished for mistakes by having ice time taken away from him while Kesler and the Sedins are given more and more minutes.

- He has placed our bread and butter point getters (the Sedins) in situations where they are more likely to be injured (the PK).
At the time, I was in support of this as I bought into his explanation of getting the Sedins into the game. Now that I see the after effect, I'm not so sure. Being on the PK can only increase the wear and tear on a player's body and the Sedins aren't built like Shea Weber or Jerome Iginla. It's my gut feeling that there are a heck of a lot of unreported injuries right now and being on the PK only increases the probability of injury occurring. Again, just a gut feeling with no stats to back it up.

-
These two areas are where I feel Torts holds some responsibility for the current injury situation and overall crappiness of the team.


I won't argue with you about the penalty kill side of things. Using the Sedins seemed like a novel idea at first, and they sure sounded like they wanted that, but maybe they could have been spared some tough minutes each night by not being on the PK. Well, maybe that would be true and hold some real weight in an argument if not for the fact that Henrik is averaging 0:59 per game of SHTOI, and Daniel is only averaging 1:04. So their inflated TOI numbers are not due to the PK, they are getting more time at even strength as well as on the PP.

And did you actually consider that maybe Torts is leaning on Hank, Danny, and Kesler, so hard because he really hasn't had anyone else who is a legitimate top-6 forward. Burrows has been over the last few years, but he has missed half the season so far.

The Kassian situation is somewhat puzzling. But not unsolvable when you actually look at his play. The kid is taking strides, and as much as I am a fan of him, I readily admit that when he starts seeing more than 14-15 minutes per game the mental mistakes can begin to pile up. It seems the same can be said about Hansen, Higgins, and Burrows, this year.

Also, at this level I don't think it is the coach's responsibility to pull a player when he's hurt. The trainer and the player need to make that call, or the team doctor. Henrik is a big boy, and if he's not even at 90% then he needs to be honest with both himself and his coach and take a seat until he's ready to go.
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