What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck team?

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What is happening to the team right now?

Slump.
22
34%
Downward slope.
16
25%
Flu.
1
2%
Injuries.
8
13%
Fatigue.
7
11%
Other.
3
5%
Nothing fool! Now shut your yap.
7
11%
 
Total votes : 64

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Puck » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:05 pm

Part of the reason for the decline of this team is a shift in way the game is played, or perhaps more accurately, coached. Unfortunately, for us the Canuck faithful such a shift has happened twice just as the team was peaking. The WCE-era team peaked a little too late, as did this Sedin-era team.

The trouble with these shifts is that you have to decide in advance how you're going to play, build to meet that goal and then hope that that style will be effective once your team comes together. Pat Quinn spoke about this problem following the failure of his group. He said that no-one knew that obstruction and the coaching schemes that went with it would become so prevalent, and the Canucks found themselves with a roster that was suddenly unsuited to the times.

I think Gillis has witnessed a similar development and you can see how he has tentatively taken steps to address it, but the degree to which it has been done has probably confused the ideology of the team more than addressing the apparent problem. Whatever he does moving forward, it's going to have to be more substantial. If it's to shift to a Bruins/Kings style of play, then much more needs to be done.
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Strangelove » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:32 pm

arttk wrote:
Strangelove wrote:From that other board, someone calls out Pauser (AKA y2kcanucks):

arttk wrote:Considering that he has been *****ing about the Sedins ever since he found HF, I am not sure why I along with other people still continue to have this "discussion".

He has been against the Sedins before they broke out, after they broke out, during their Art Ross seasons and now. I mean he would be credible if he actually showed that he didn't have any bias towards them but then after 6-7 years of saying the same **** regardless of how they are preforming, come on.


:lol:


I lurk here too :D


RIGHT ON :D
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Per » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:31 pm

herb wrote:Overall, this team needs some more skilled assets up front to compete with the Sharks and Blackhawks of the Western Conference. This was the consensus at the beginning of the year and I still think this holds true.

That being said, this current losing skid (minus the Flames game I suppose) is nothing more than a slump. This team was regularly dominating teams only a few weeks ago, and I don’t think they have regressed that badly. They will get hot again and we’ll all be talking about the playoffs.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this team went on a downward slide once Burrows and Edler were injured. Personally, I underestimated the importance of these two players. Our possession numbers went to shit, and we got outshot by a pretty wide margin when these guys were out of the lineup. If we can ever get healthy, I think we’ll be fine in terms of making the playoffs.

I don’t think Gillis is blind to this team needing more horsepower. I think the Booth injury last season plus him not working out as anything more than a 3rd line type has really hampered this team. Gillis could not buy Booth out last off season due to the injury and replace him with say Clarke MacArthur, who would have been an excellent addition to this group.

The salary cap going down really hurt management’s ability to do anything other than buy out Ballard and sign a couple of cheap guys in Santorelli and Richardson, who have actually worked out beautifully.

The Sedins are a riddle at this point. Daniel is not even close to a 30 goal pace, and they continue to be just awful on the powerplay. Hank has certainly been a horse, but they need to put up more points.

Next season I think Gillis main job has to be turning Kesler’s line into the team’s first line. If Kassian continues his improvement, I think he can be one of Kesler’s winger, but at best Gillis needs to find one excellent winger to play with Kesler. Maybe Ryan Callahan who is going to be a UFA? I don’t know, but I think the effort to move the Sedins down the depth chart a bit needs to start asap.

As far as Gillis and drafting/development goes; I think the focus from ownership and management was very clearly on “winning now” from 2008-2012. That being said, they still have added some decent young players in Tanev, Kassian, Stanton and Lack, but this needs to improve in 2014. Thankfully, there are some very promising guys in the CHL who I am very much looking forward to seeing in September.

Finally, as far as trades go, I think Tanev and Stanton should be able to make somebody on the back-end expendable. I love Juice, but I think he could give us a massive return at the trade deadline…

Excellent post! :)

I agree with everything, except the Sedins being a riddle. They have both been playing through injuries. Daniel had a concussion, Henrik has some kind of hand injury and now the fractured ribs as well. It's only expected that their production goes down. Add to this that Burrows has been injured and that they have seen a parade of clowns as their line mate(s).

If they are all healthy when the playoffs begin, we should be able to see the real Sedins again. They put on a splendid show at the world championship last spring, and that's less than a year ago. They're not done. Sure, they probably peaked around the time they won their Art Rosses, but they should still have several good years left. I agree though that the team should attempt to try building a new first line around Kesler. to begin with, that could be a 1A/1B situation and then you let the twins gradually become the much needed secondary scoring.

The only problem is that we still lack the pieces for that new first line. :|
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby SKYO » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:14 am

herb wrote:Overall, this team needs some more skilled assets up front to compete with the Sharks and Blackhawks of the Western Conference. This was the consensus at the beginning of the year and I still think this holds true.

I don’t think Gillis is blind to this team needing more horsepower. I think the Booth injury last season plus him not working out as anything more than a 3rd line type has really hampered this team.
Gillis could not buy Booth out last off season due to the injury and replace him with say Clarke MacArthur, who would have been an excellent addition to this group.

The salary cap going down really hurt management’s ability to do anything other than buy out Ballard and sign a couple of cheap guys in Santorelli and Richardson, who have actually worked out beautifully.

Next season I think Gillis main job has to be turning Kesler’s line into the team’s first line. If Kassian continues his improvement, I think he can be one of Kesler’s winger, but at best Gillis needs to find one excellent winger to play with Kesler. Maybe Ryan Callahan who is going to be a UFA? I don’t know, but I think the effort to move the Sedins down the depth chart a bit needs to start asap.



Good points, lack of high end talent, cap gone down, Booth is a injury riddled bust with a big cap hit.

As for fixing the 2nd line, If MG can't make a solid trade to get a winger, ie can't trade Edler or Bieksa or Tanev for a sniper, then he should go against his word and somehow make a deal for Thomas Vanek, because if TV reaches UFA, MG won't get a sniff at trying to persuade him to sign here, if he trades for TV, he has at least a better shot at re-signing him imo.

Vanek - Kesler - Kassian
Sedin - Sedin - Burrows

Having Vanek here could vault the new look 2nd line to 1st line status, giving the Sedins a break and make them the best 2nd line in the league.

With the Sedins / TV-RK as lethal dynamic duo scoring lines, it would create all kinds of havoc for opposing defensive strategies. Ultimately that would make MG's job a heck of a lot easier in the short and long run as all he would have to do is be like Bowman in Chicago and add various pieces to surround that talented core with a mix of vets and developing young guns.
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby herb » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:17 am

^ By the Sedins being a riddle I mean they have seemingly become streakier this year, and I don't understand why they have regressed so badly on the power play. I agree they are not done, but they need to put pucks in the net.

As far as next season is concerned, there could be over $7M in cap space to spend on a forward UFA assuming a Booth buyout and depending on what RFAs like Tanev and Kassian command. This is actually looking like a decent UFA class with some intriguing pieces possibly becoming available like Stastny, Hemsky, Cammallerri, Michalek, Callahan, Vanek, Gaborik, Gionta, Moulson, Penner and maybe even Marleau (doubt it).
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby dbr » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:52 am

I wouldn't want to bet my team's future on one of those guys becoming indispensable over the bulk of a long term contract at UFA dollars.

I mean, that's unrestricted free agency in a nutshell but the kind of guy I think this team needs to add (either a top line scorer or a guy with decent scoring ability and a great two-way game, late 20s at the oldest, ideally with a bit of size, ideally without a list of injuries as long as my arm) isn't going to be available there.
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby mathonwy » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:58 am

herb wrote:Next season I think Gillis main job has to be turning Kesler’s line into the team’s first line.

Per wrote:I agree though that the team should attempt to try building a new first line around Kesler. to begin with, that could be a 1A/1B situation and then you let the twins gradually become the much needed secondary scoring.

The only problem is that we still lack the pieces for that new first line. :|

SKYO wrote:Having Vanek here could vault the new look 2nd line to 1st line status, giving the Sedins a break and make them the best 2nd line in the league.

I disagree.

Since the Sedins have come into their own, the Canucks have gone as the Sedins have gone. Sedins go cold, typically, nobody steps up and the team goes on a mini/major slump. For better or for worse, we've hooked our red wagon to the Sedin train so lets get them an elite right winger to play with.

I am opposed to trading anybody this regular season. The Nucks are in the worst trading position at this point of time and with everyone seemingly sucking at the same time, they have extremely little leverage.

I think GMMG's offseason priority is to

a) Stop trading away pieces for the future.
b) Get a trigger man for the Sedins. Somebody that's good at scoring goals.
Daniel Alfredsson!! Yes, he's old as dirt but...
- he's having a decent season on a bad Wings team
- he's swedish. The Sedins are swedish. I think swedish people like playing with other swedish people. :D
- he's a veteran player that can REALLY help with the powerplay. We don't need a young buck on the power play. We need a vet with a lot of experience that can help Hank figure shit out.

Iggy. Having Iggy on our team would be pretty bad ass. Not sure that would happen but I would overpay to get Iggy for his grit and experience and most of all, for the ability to give Calpuck the middle finger.

And of course, I wouldn't say no to Evander Kane. :)

Sedin-Sedin-Alfredsson
Bur-Santo-Kes
Kassian-Richardson-Higgins
Hansen-Dalpe-Weise

Not bad?

Oh yeah. Alfy's a bit of an asshole too.



:thumbs:
Last edited by mathonwy on Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Meds » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:01 am

herb wrote:^ By the Sedins being a riddle I mean they have seemingly become streakier this year, and I don't understand why they have regressed so badly on the power play. I agree they are not done, but they need to put pucks in the net.

As far as next season is concerned, there could be over $7M in cap space to spend on a forward UFA assuming a Booth buyout and depending on what RFAs like Tanev and Kassian command. This is actually looking like a decent UFA class with some intriguing pieces possibly becoming available like Stastny, Hemsky, Cammallerri, Michalek, Callahan, Vanek, Gaborik, Gionta, Moulson, Penner and maybe even Marleau (doubt it).


Right now we will have roughly $11M to spend next season. Assuming Booth gets bought out that goes up to around $15M.

As much as I like Tanev I don't want to see Gillis dump another $3.5M into a single piece of our blueline unless he moves one of the existing top 4 paycheques out of the picture. There is a window of opportunity to trade Tanev before difficult negotiations ensue.....my preference would be to see Tanev stay and Edler waive his NTC for a trade that brings us a legitimate top 6 forward and try to replace his physical game with a steady bottom pairing anchor who can eat PK minutes and then work a deal to bring in a puck mover, like Ehrhoff was, in the $4M price range. I just see Tanev's contract negotiations being problematic and I don't want to see us lose him for nothing or get screwed over by some jackass GM with an offersheet. After this season I can also see Tanev wanting a NTC.....and we have WAY too many of those right now.

If Kassian continues to improve over the remainder of the season then I see his agent asking for a short term deal (2 year max) and under $1.5M.

There are certainly some potential UFA's in the mix that are worth a look. Unfortunately UFA players always cost way too much for what they bring because of the market, and there are only a couple of names on that list that who fit the mold that we need to stack up against top teams in the West.
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby herb » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:05 am

Fair enough. UFAs scare the hell out of me (see David Clarkson). I mentioned Ryan Callahan earlier because he could represent a lower risk option, but do I want Callahan signed here at $7M until he is 36? No way.

Maybe the best thing to do will be to give Horvat/Gaunce/Fox/Shinkaruk/Jensen a legitimate shot. It's a risk, but three of these guys will be eligible for the AHL anyway, which would represent some flexibility. Kesler has shown he can play wing as well, which opens up options of course in terms of Horvat.

I guess what I am getting at is there should be options. Signing an expensive UFA to a long term contract could be the flexibility kryptonite though...
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby dbr » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:54 am

I think it depends who you're getting.

If you can add a difference maker, and I mean like a high end impact player (Chara, Suter, Parise, Hossa, etc) then you just do it and worry about the numbers down the line. In what appears more and more to be a permanently increasing cap ceiling system, today's overpayment is tomorrow's "how can we replace that player without spending more money".

Trouble is I don't really see one in this class. Callahan is a real nice player, Vanek has been that guy but could/would he do it in the Western Conference, starting at the tail end of his peak as a player?

If I thought yes I'd have no trouble giving the guy $8m a season or whatever it's going to take.

Because otherwise you're faced with paying 3/4 as much for second rate players, or dealing away a handful of assets to improve your team if you can even find a franchise that wants to move a good player for that kind of return.
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby herb » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:15 pm

Great points as usual Dave.

So will Gillis be left with testing the market and seeing what he can get for a reasonable amount?
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby dbr » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:45 pm

Probably. :scowl:

I know it didn't exactly work out with Keith Ballard but it would be interesting to see this team try to make a big splash to add to the forward group this offseason the same way they did with the defense at the 2010 draft.. identify a player you can target in free agency and then try to land one of the bigger names floating around at the draft.

But, if I go any further down that road I'll have to continue in RyanGinger's thread.
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Topper » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:04 pm

GMMG's MO has been to target guys who want to play in Vancouver and are willing to settle for a discount to do so. i don't see that philosophy changing.

What will change is the style of player he targets due to the change in coaching style.

I'm not sure if the Sedins set the upper salary limit anymore either.
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Hockey Widow » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:52 pm

I think most of us are on the same page.

1) No deadline day deals that will only prolong the inevitable, an early playoff exit, and cost us more of the future.

2) off season UFA in the top six. No more bottom six. The ones we have are fine.

3) willingness to trade from the core if it brings us back a top six.

4) let some of the kids play and begin the serious effort to integrate them into the line up.

5) buy out Booth.

Unless MG can move cap he can't pick up any cap this year so the ability to trade at deadline is hampered. My fear is he will go after someone with a cap at 5+ and get the other team to take Booth but have to surrender picks and or prospects to do it. Now I suppose it that guy is a true top six with term it is worth it. But if it is a rental I'll be pissed if we fail to win a cup.
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Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Per » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:28 pm

mathonwy wrote:I think GMMG's offseason priority is to

a) Stop trading away pieces for the future.
b) Get a trigger man for the Sedins. Somebody that's good at scoring goals.
Daniel Alfredsson!! Yes, he's old as dirt but...
- he's having a decent season on a bad Wings team
- he's swedish. The Sedins are swedish. I think swedish people like playing with other swedish people. :D
- he's a veteran player that can REALLY help with the powerplay. We don't need a young buck on the power play. We need a vet with a lot of experience that can help Hank figure shit out.

:thumbs:

Sure, that might work, but if you're looking for a Swede to play with the Sedins, Loui Eriksson should be at the top of the list. In the four games the Sedins played at the 2013 World Championship, they had him on their line. Over those four games (beat Denmark 4-2, beat Canada 3-2, beat Finland 3-0 and beat Switzerland in the final 5-1) this line combined for 22 points! :shock:

Henrik Sedin: 4 goals, 5 assists
Loui Eriksson: 4 goals, 3 assists
Daniel Sedin: 1 goal, 5 assists

Loui seemed like the perfect fit for them! He tends to score 25-30 goals on an NHL season, but I think he'd do even better with the twins. Unfortunately I think he has two years left on his contract with the Bruins. :(
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