Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby Mondi » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:30 pm

herb wrote:I'll take consistently making the playoffs with a good team over "loading up for the future" (i.e. the Edmonton model of continual failure) 100 times out of 100.

For what it's worth, the Canucks are 8-11-7 in 26 games against playoff teams, gaining 23 points out of those games. I have no idea how that stacks up against other playoff teams' records against playoff teams, but the bottom line for me is that despite the past four games we have made up significant ground on San Jose, Colorado, and LA over the past six weeks, not to mention we caught and passed Phoenix.


FWIW, Chicago and Pittsburgh indicate that loading up for the future isn't doomed to fail. The Canucks already went that route in 1996-1997, 1997-1998, 1998-1999 and 1999-2000. And they are currently living off the fruits of that suckage. Daniel and Henrik.

Every 10 to 15 years teams do this. Unless you want a Calgary situation circa 2005-2013, you'd better hope MG doesn't share your distorted view.

And if you think 8-11-7 is a good or even acceptable record, I guess you're getting what you wish for--mediocrity.

FWIW.
Last edited by Mondi on Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby herb » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:36 pm

Mondi wrote:And if you think 8-11-7 is a good or even acceptable record, I guess you're getting what you wish for--mediocrity.


FWIW.

The Hawks, the team most view as the creme de la creme of the NHL, are 10-4-9 in 23 games. Better than the Canucks to be sure, but not by a monstrous margin.
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby herb » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:57 pm

Mondi wrote:FWIW, Chicago and Pittsburgh indicate that loading up for the future isn't doomed to fail. The Canucks already went that root in 1996-1997, 1997-1998, 1998-1999 and 1999-2000. And they are currently living off the fruits of that suckage. Daniel and Henrik.


Things were so bad in Pittsburgh before the best player in the league fell into their lap that the team couldn’t sell any tickets and nearly moved several times.

There was a similar situation in Chicago, where they couldn’t get the United Center even half full because the team was so shitty. The Blackhawks drafting high had them out of the playoffs for the better part of a decade and drafting gems like Tuomu Ruutu, Cam Barker, Jack Skille and Steve McCarthy. I remember Chicago being called the “worst franchise in pro sports”. Most of the Blackhawks existing core players weren’t even drafted all that high.

There are plenty of examples of bad teams who have drafted high for many years and still have no wins to show for it. Edmonton, Columbus, NYI and Florida show us there are no guarantees in drafting.

Quality players come from all over the place in the draft, and even as undrafted free agents these days. I much prefer having a winning culture, a steady flow of quality prospects, strong player development and a competitive team.
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby Meds » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:41 pm

herb wrote:
Mondi wrote:FWIW, Chicago and Pittsburgh indicate that loading up for the future isn't doomed to fail. The Canucks already went that root in 1996-1997, 1997-1998, 1998-1999 and 1999-2000. And they are currently living off the fruits of that suckage. Daniel and Henrik.


Things were so bad in Pittsburgh before the best player in the league fell into their lap that the team couldn’t sell any tickets and nearly moved several times.

There was a similar situation in Chicago, where they couldn’t get the United Center even half full because the team was so shitty. The Blackhawks drafting high had them out of the playoffs for the better part of a decade and drafting gems like Tuomu Ruutu, Cam Barker, Jack Skille and Steve McCarthy. I remember Chicago being called the “worst franchise in pro sports”. Most of the Blackhawks existing core players weren’t even drafted all that high.


Get your facts a little straighter there herb.

Chicago's fans bolted because of the previous owner. He was brutal. He alienated the fans and they quit coming out to games.

Exactly who do you consider to be the core of Chicago's team?

I'd say.....

Jonathan Toews (3rd overall)
Patrick Kane (1st overall)
Marian Hossa (12th overall)
Brent Seabrook (14th overall)
Duncan Keith (54th overall)
Patrick Sharp (95th overall)
Corey Crawford (52nd overall)

4 of their top 7 are top 15 picks, 2 of those guys are top 3.

Keith went late likely because he was scouted as a college player and they often get overlooked somewhat.

Considering he's not an all-star goaltender, Crawford actually went fairly high in the draft (2nd round) for a goaltender who isn't considered to be the second coming of Patrick Roy.
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby Todd Bersnoozi » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:11 pm

herb wrote:Things were so bad in Pittsburgh before the best player in the league fell into their lap that the team couldn’t sell any tickets and nearly moved several times.


I think Pittsburgh tanked it to get Sid. They were a pretty good team in the early 2000s with a bunch of skilled Euros like Jagr, Straka, Lang and Kovalev. They were good players, but not the cast to win u a Stanley Cup. They saw Sid in the horizon and just blew up the team and got rid of all those guys. Well, they lucked out and won the Crosby sweepstakes. I don't think they saw Malkin becoming an elite player, but they got him as well. Hell, they know when to tank it; they probably did the same thing to get Super Mario. :cry:
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby Listercat » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:15 pm

Hossa was not a Hawks draft pick.
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby Todd Bersnoozi » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:46 pm

5thhorseman wrote:On the plus side, Eddie "No Panic Attack" Lack made some great saves in the second to keep us in the game, though I'd fault him on the Pens 3rd.


I like it. Eddie Lack No Panic Attack Pack! :lol:
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby Reefer2 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:40 pm

are we even talking about the game anymore?
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby rats19 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:15 pm

Reefer2 wrote:are we even talking about the game anymore?

No, but if they were. It would be the correct thread
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby Vader » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:32 pm

Listercat wrote:Hossa was not a Hawks draft pick.


Yup - neither was Sharp

Chicago won cups because they found the likes of Byfuglien, Hjalmarrson, Brouwer, and Bolland late in the draft, stole Sharp and Versteeg from other teams, and made some astute signings (Hossa, Sopel, Niemi, Campbell) to go along with getting Towes and Kane.

The notion they're a good team becuase they tanked and drafted high is laughable at best.
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby Strangelove » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:34 pm

Meds wrote:Give your head a shake Toddler


:D
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby Strangelove » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:35 pm

Reefer2 wrote:are we even talking about the game anymore?


What game? :eh:

*kicks sand in Mondi's face, kicks sand in Toddler's face* :mex:
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby dbr » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:01 am

Vader wrote:
Listercat wrote:Hossa was not a Hawks draft pick.


Yup - neither was Sharp

Chicago won cups because they found the likes of Byfuglien, Hjalmarrson, Brouwer, and Bolland late in the draft, stole Sharp and Versteeg from other teams, and made some astute signings (Hossa, Sopel, Niemi, Campbell) to go along with getting Towes and Kane.

The notion they're a good team becuase they tanked and drafted high is laughable at best.


Seabrook was a fairly high pick as well, not that it detracts from the overall point.

The only team you can even try to claim won entirely by virtue of its high end draft picks would be PIttsburgh (Fleury, Malkin, Crosby, Staal) and while getting a player of Crosby's talent alone should be a once-in-a-lifetime thing for a given franchise ( :look: ) getting him right after a player like Malkin is just.. you can't plan on that.
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby herb » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:17 am

Meds wrote:Exactly who do you consider to be the core of Chicago's team?

I'd say.....

Jonathan Toews (3rd overall)
Patrick Kane (1st overall)
Marian Hossa (12th overall)
Brent Seabrook (14th overall)
Duncan Keith (54th overall)
Patrick Sharp (95th overall)
Corey Crawford (52nd overall)


As others have pointed out Hossa wasn't a Hawks pick.

I don't consider mid round picks like Seabrook to be in "tank it" territory. Hell, we got Horvat without any need to tank it. Keith, Sharp, Crawford and others were astute later round picks and clearly not acquired because of tanking it. The Hawks are a great team due to fantastic overall management, astute trades and good FA signings - not a "tank it" philosophy.

As Dave said, what happened in Pittsburgh was highly unlikely, and it would be stupid to bank on that happening again.
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Re: Pittsburgh @ Vancouver 10:00 PM ET TSN,ROOT

Postby Meds » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:03 am

herb wrote:
Meds wrote:Exactly who do you consider to be the core of Chicago's team?

I'd say.....

Jonathan Toews (3rd overall)
Patrick Kane (1st overall)
Marian Hossa (12th overall)
Brent Seabrook (14th overall)
Duncan Keith (54th overall)
Patrick Sharp (95th overall)
Corey Crawford (52nd overall)


As others have pointed out Hossa wasn't a Hawks pick.

I don't consider mid round picks like Seabrook to be in "tank it" territory. Hell, we got Horvat without any need to tank it. Keith, Sharp, Crawford and others were astute later round picks and clearly not acquired because of tanking it. The Hawks are a great team due to fantastic overall management, astute trades and good FA signings - not a "tank it" philosophy.

As Dave said, what happened in Pittsburgh was highly unlikely, and it would be stupid to bank on that happening again.


Right, wasn't thinking along the lines of just Hawks picks.....

Agreed on Pittsburgh, it's a big risk trying to rebuild exclusively through the draft. Edmonton has been trying for the better part of a decade now, or so it seems, and they are still spinning their wheels.

Current Oilers 1st round picks still on the roster...

Yakupov (2012 - 1st)
Nugent-Hopkins (2011 - 1st)
Hall (2010 - 1st)
Eberle (2008 - 22nd)
Gagner (2007 - 6th)
Dubnyk (2004 -14th)
Hemsky (2001 - 13th)

It's a bit of a stretch to include Hemsky as 2001 was technically before their current rebuild, but considering the overall state of the franchise and how long they have been a bottom feeding team, it could also be argued that the Oilers actually started the rebuild with Hemsky.....meaning they've been in rebuild mode for 13 years come this year's draft.
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