Canucks News and Notes

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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Topper » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:45 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:So many people seem to think that this team completely tanked after our cup loss......or even after the Boston revenge game on Jan 7 2012.......

Having said all that, I'm glad that we have Tortorella as V's time here was done.

I agree with most of waht you said, however the portion in bold contradicts GMMG's post season assessment.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby The Brown Knight » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:11 am

Topper wrote:
The Brown Knight wrote:So many people seem to think that this team completely tanked after our cup loss......or even after the Boston revenge game on Jan 7 2012.......

Having said all that, I'm glad that we have Tortorella as V's time here was done.

I agree with most of waht you said, however the portion in bold contradicts GMMG's post season assessment.


If that's the case, even MG is being overly harsh on the team I think (at that time). ( On an unrelated note, I wonder how the team would have fared had they packaged Hodgson and Schneider for some immediate help.....like a top 6 forward for instance).

While it IS true that the team didn't consistently play well after the Jan 7th game, we still put in great efforts (and wins) against elite teams such as Chicago and Detroit during that time period.

And again - I reiterate - a team doesn't win a 2nd consecutive Presidents' trophy if they go completely AWOL. Period.

Outside of Game 2, the Canucks and Kings were neck and neck and those games were a coin flip. Daniel missed the first 3 games........perhaps that would have made a difference?

In my opinion, the only "sub-par" season we've had in recent years, was last season.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby SKYO » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:51 pm

"Torts says not comfortable with Kassian on Twins line b/c of his play in own zone & against other team's best players #Canucks
via: @patersonjeff"

In other words Kassian sucks defensively.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Island Nucklehead » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:23 pm

SKYO wrote:"Torts says not comfortable with Kassian on Twins line b/c of his play in own zone & against other team's best players #Canucks
via: @patersonjeff"

In other words Kassian sucks defensively.


Not really much of a surprise, is it? He's a big guy who not only needs to learn how to use his size at the pro level, but maintain a high compete level (without crossing the line) and play at a consistently high tempo. On top of that, there's the defensive side of the game.

The Sedins play 17+ mins per night even strength. Kassian has averaged 11. Not a good fit for a 5on5 line.

I would like to see Kassian on the PP with the twins. Where a guy like Burrows couldn't do jack shit with 2+ minutes of PP time per game, Kassian gets about 20 seconds. The Sedins and Kesler average over 3 minutes per night on the PP. With the way Santorelli has played with Kesler and Higgins, why not use them on the PP, and throw Kassian a bone with the Sedins?

Given that we are still bottom-5 in the NHL on the PP, I think change could start there.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Topper » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:53 pm

SKYO wrote:"Torts says not comfortable with Kassian on Twins line b/c of his play in own zone & against other team's best players #Canucks
via: @patersonjeff"

In other words Kassian sucks defensively.

Ooooooooo

You mean he may have to earn his way to the top line?

So hard to fathom for so many.......
Last edited by Topper on Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby SKYO » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:48 pm

Agreed Tops, Kass has to earn his minutes under Torts!

Island Nucklehead wrote:Not really much of a surprise, is it? He's a big guy who not only needs to learn how to use his size at the pro level, but maintain a high compete level (without crossing the line) and play at a consistently high tempo. On top of that, there's the defensive side of the game.

I would like to see Kassian on the PP with the twins.


imo Kassian won't breakout dominant till the old age of 24.

As for powerplay use Torts should give it a try sooner or later, or at least get him prepped in the offseason for that type of role, then next season he'd be more likely to succeed!

Can't rush Kass right now as he's still learning to pace himself correctly so he stay consistent more often, a trait lost on young power forwards.

Coupla more seasons of maturing for ZK, which is an agonizing wait for him to come around for us fans, but it'll be worth it.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby The Brown Knight » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:08 pm

I'm with Torts on this one.

Until Kassian improves his defensive game, and attitude, then fuck him.

Nothing should be handed to the kid. Let him earn it. He's talented enough.

Sedins, Kesler, and Burrows all "paid their dues" on the bottom 6 while becoming more well rounded players. Let Kassian do the same.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:22 pm

Topper wrote:
SKYO wrote:"Torts says not comfortable with Kassian on Twins line b/c of his play in own zone & against other team's best players #Canucks
via: @patersonjeff"

In other words Kassian sucks defensively.

Ooooooooo

You mean he may have to earn his way to the top line?

So hard to fathom for so many.......


For myself I haven't advocated that Kassian be a staple on the top line but a handfull of shifts here and there throughout a game could do wonders for the kid. Kassian is weak defensively but so are the twins so laoding up a line with three guys like that isn't smart. Only this season do the twins seem to be playing a better defensive game and getting their noses dirty in their own end. Funny, as young players they had a 200 ft game but around 2008 that went south hard. I see no reason to put three mediocre defensive players on the same line all the time.

I still think Kassian would look good alongside Kesler and Higgins but he needs to earn it. If Santorelli is the other winger on the 2nd line then Gillis needs to add a centre with some skill. Or if Kassian can sieze the spot Santo drops to the middle of the 3rd line. Either way the days of both Burrows and Hansen in the top 6 have to stop. I'd also
like to see some PP time for Zack with the twins and put Kesler on the 2nd unit, but for whatever reason the coaching staff seems to want to stack the first unit despite the fact the PP has sucked pipe for two calendar years.

The kid is coming along slowly but surely. I know there are some like the dude that have their fingers crossed hoping he will fail but I do see some signs, however small they are ,that he is an improving player. Give him 12 - 14 min and 1- 2 minutes of PP time and you will see some decent results. He needs a better centre than Richardson to play with however. Nice kid and good 4th line guy but the team goes nowhere with him anchoring the 3rd line.

As an asside SKYO he doesn't SUCK defensively but he has some improving to do. I along with a few others were more likely pissed that AV never gave the kid more than 6 minutes per game and burried him on the 4th line after 5 goals in 7 games.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Island Nucklehead » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:37 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:I'm with Torts on this one.

Until Kassian improves his defensive game, and attitude, then fuck him.

Nothing should be handed to the kid. Let him earn it. He's talented enough.

Sedins, Kesler, and Burrows all "paid their dues" on the bottom 6 while becoming more well rounded players. Let Kassian do the same.


Well there ya go.

He shouldn't have to play much D on the PP. He can establish a net presence and he's got the hands for the garbage goals. He sure as shit can't do any worse than Burrows' PP performance this season.

He's never going to be a two-way player like Burr or Kesler, so let's not set the kid up for failure. We acquired him to add sandpaper, punish opponents D, have strong net presence (garbage goals), and beat the tar out of people if/when required. We didn't bring him in here to win Selke's or zip around on the PK.

I'm all for keeping him in a bottom-6 role for the 5on5 play, his development and play definitely calls for that. But when your PP is as fucking awful as ours has been over the past year, it's worth a shot to try a guy like that out. Putting him with the Sedins in those situations probably boosts his confidence in all areas of play, and in the playoffs (if we make them) should keep other players from taking liberties with the Sedins after the whistle.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:44 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:I'm with Torts on this one.

Until Kassian improves his defensive game, and attitude, then fuck him.

Nothing should be handed to the kid. Let him earn it. He's talented enough.

Sedins, Kesler, and Burrows all "paid their dues" on the bottom 6 while becoming more well rounded players. Let Kassian do the same.


Sedins have never played bottom six on this team . Ever. Burrows is on the downslope and coatailed the twins to his success. We will likely see a regression to 2006-07 levels for him. He could be the compliance buyout next summer if the team can find a taker for Booth and Luongo.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby ClamRussel » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:50 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:I'm with Torts on this one.

Until Kassian improves his defensive game, and attitude, then fuck him.

Nothing should be handed to the kid. Let him earn it. He's talented enough.

Sedins, Kesler, and Burrows all "paid their dues" on the bottom 6 while becoming more well rounded players. Let Kassian do the same.


Kesler and especially Burrows, yes.

The Sedins hardly paid their dues towards earning icetime. They walked into the league and were handed the 2nd PP unit on a silver platter despite their weak play for years. Our 2nd PP unit was a disaster w/ them on it when they clearly weren't ready. It was outrageous the amount of icetime the Sedins received under Crawford. Their results at the time didn't warrant it and what did they do to earn it? Most fans on here wanted to run Crawford out of town for this favouritism. They started as 3rd liners w/ regular PP time and no time on the 4th line w/ 4min of ice or being scratched.

Ah, but look how they turned out.

There's a case there for letting certain players learn as they play and living with their mistakes because the return at the end is worth it. Like Blob said, he should definitely be on the PP. Our PP doesn't have a big man in front of the net and desperately could use it. Perhaps Kassian w/ the Twins isn't a good fit defensively right now but he should either be w/ Selke winning Kesler or w/ Santorelli on the 3rd line and on one of the 2 PP units. He's got the skill to warrant it. Perhaps like the Sedins he just needs someone to believe in him & work with him on his defensive play.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby ClamRussel » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:56 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:I'm all for keeping him in a bottom-6 role for the 5on5 play, his development and play definitely calls for that. But when your PP is as fucking awful as ours has been over the past year, it's worth a shot to try a guy like that out. Putting him with the Sedins in those situations probably boosts his confidence in all areas of play, and in the playoffs (if we make them) should keep other players from taking liberties with the Sedins after the whistle.


Look at the success Gretzky & Kurri had w/ Semenko as an anchor tied around their ankles. Kassian has 10x the offensive talent Semenko did and, while not as scary, he could easily create some room for them & keep the opposing team a bit more honest. Bure did just fine w/ Odjick on his line. Unlike some of the parroting that goes on, its not about Kassian "earning" his ice time w/ the Sedins but rather he might be the best fit for them now on this current roster. Skill aside, he also serves a purpose. Work the corners, go to the net & bang home the garbage....and ya, drop the gloves when teams try to bully the Twins.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Vader » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:12 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Sedins have never played bottom six on this team . Ever.


*Manual Buzzer*

Sedins played behind and received less ice time than the WCE, and Cassels/ Linden / Schaefer / Hlavac etc between 2000 - 2002

Avg ice time for them ranged from a low of 12:22 (Daniel) and a high of 13:58 (Henrik) in their first three years.

That's firmly in the third line territory.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:27 pm

It may be third line territory and perhaps I was wrong. :evil: . My point being ( I think Clam brought it up too) though is that they were gifted 40 - 50 seconds on every single PP that team got back then regardless of how shitty they looked out there. There were many, many ,many games in a row where the twins and Trent Klatt looked like absolute trash yet they still kept getting a healthy dose of icetime with ample pp time. I think that's all some folks want to see Kassian get- a bit of a fair shake which he seems to be slowly getting under Torts. AV however had zero use for the kid.

Jan Hlavac was hardly a factor here in his illustrious 55 games. Some of the icetime they gave him was likely so that they could fatten him up to move him.

The likes of Glassels, Linden and Schaefer may have played a few more minutes than the twins but there's no way those players got close to the amount of pp time and mollycoddling that the twins received. The twins and Klatt were defintely counted on to be this teams 2nd wave of offence in those early years.
Edit- Glassels did play a lot of pp time on the point but my point stands.
Last edited by Blob Mckenzie on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby The Brown Knight » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:28 pm

Vader hit the nail on the head, but Clam makes some excellent points going the other way.

Ditto for Blob and Isle Nuck.

I think it's a judgement call. Perhaps the Sedins' were given 3rd line ice time and 2nd line PP time when they started, but their attitudes were always great.

Can we say the same about Kassian?

One fear I have is that we GIVE Kassian that top line spot, he has some short term success, and then turns into a prima Donna.

Once upon a time (in a nursery rhyme!) we saw this happen in Canuck land. The year was 2001 and the prima donna's name was Todd Bertuzzi. Like Kassian, he was shitty in his own end, but had the potential to be a brute strength up front. He maximized his potential after being GIVEN the top spot.

End result? He had 1-2 excellent seasons, while turning into a prima donna. As result, Bertuzzi ended up being a one dimensional player with very limited leadership skills. Ultimately, Bertuzzi ended up being more of a liability than an asset for us. His extremely lazy defensive play and shitty attitude between the years 2004-2006 hurt this team.

Personally speaking? I'd rather see Kassian earn his spot and have the chance of mentally maturing, while developing a stronger two-way game. If it doesn't pan out? Then, by all means, move him up eventually. Just don't do it right now and "gift" him that spot and risk creating a one-dimensional prima Donna.
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