Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby Arachnid » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:40 pm

Meds wrote:
Arachnid wrote:Maybe this will make them go 5 hole

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They say that more often than not players shoot for where they are looking.....so chances are they'll still be hitting the goalies in the chest after this practice......


I don't know where you are looking Medick but all I see is holes :roll:
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby SKYO » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:40 am

As I posted in HF the top tier teams have the best Goal For avg.

If your team can score a lot of goals, you should be in great shape and increase your teams probability of winning pressure intensive series in the post season.

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Boom all discussions about being more defensive should be put to rest for good, you're welcome everybody. :mrgreen:
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby The Brown Knight » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:02 am

Interesting post SKYO, and thanks for sharing, but I still stand by my original comments.

Los Angeles and Boston have a relatively low overall Goals For (comparable to ours), but I think we can all agree that both those teams would qualify as being 'elite' teams.

As I said earlier - I believe the Canucks have a much better chance of being one of the best defensive teams in the league this season than they do in being one of the best offensive teams this season. Period.

I believe that if the Canucks tighten up a little, and reduce the QUALITY of scoring chances that opponents get, then we will be more successful.

One major problem I see right now with this team, is that we often give up some very dangerous high quality scoring chances. Even if we're out-shooting the opponent by a wide margin, and even if we have greater puck possession time than the opponent, we are often giving up far higher quality chances.

Hence - why we've lost many games to elite teams this year despite out-shooting them while carrying the play.
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:01 am

The bottom fucking line is you need to score three to be successful. Hell even Dutter knows that and he has a cup ring to show for it. Some of those teams on SKYO's list are paper tigers like the Yotes. They won't be there when the dust settles and have parlayed a few high scoring games to reach those gaudy numbers.
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby dbr » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:05 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:The bottom fucking line is you need to score three to be successful. Hell even Dutter knows that and he has a cup ring to show for it. Some of those teams on SKYO's list are paper tigers like the Yotes. They won't be there when the dust settles and have parlayed a few high scoring games to reach those gaudy numbers.


The team clearly has problems at both ends of the rink to some extent.

That being said I was following a hunch this morning so I counted up the Kings record in games where they''ve scored 0 or 1 goal: 1-4-4.

They have actually collected points more often than not when they've failed to score two goals, nevermind three.
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby SKYO » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:51 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:Interesting post SKYO, and thanks for sharing, but I still stand by my original comments.

Los Angeles and Boston have a relatively low overall Goals For (comparable to ours), but I think we can all agree that both those teams would qualify as being 'elite' teams.

As I said earlier - I believe the Canucks have a much better chance of being one of the best defensive teams in the league this season than they do in being one of the best offensive teams this season. Period.

I believe that if the Canucks tighten up a little, and reduce the QUALITY of scoring chances that opponents get, then we will be more successful.

One major problem I see right now with this team, is that we often give up some very dangerous high quality scoring chances. Even if we're out-shooting the opponent by a wide margin, and even if we have greater puck possession time than the opponent, we are often giving up far higher quality chances.

Hence - why we've lost many games to elite teams this year despite out-shooting them while carrying the play.


Even Torts believes we aren't winning enough due to not burying all those chances, and that's been the case for awhile now.

LA/Boston have the one key thing we don't on defense and that's a Norris trophy dman who can dominate a game by himself. Z Chara and to a lesser extent Doughty but he's due for Norris trophy sooner or later.

But yeah tightening up defensively will undoubtedly help! we know we can do that due to our top ranked PK, but our scoring woes will continue to haunt this team forever into eternity until they can get a player or two whose specialty is sniping in goals consistently, and that will be MG's M.O. from now on imho.
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby The Brown Knight » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:31 am

SKYO wrote:
Even Torts believes we aren't winning enough due to not burying all those chances, and that's been the case for awhile now.


Well yeah, I mean that's obvious.........but the question you have to ask yourself is, "why?"

In my opinion, it is largely due to the fact that the Canucks don't get many good looks/chances in the slot area.

Sure - they get a lot a ton of shots and do have a pretty high puck possession percentage, but they still have an extremely difficult time penentrating the slot area. Why? Because - they are not fast enough or big enough. Having even ONE of those qualities would suffice, but the Canucks lack in both.

As result, a lot of our chances come from the perimeter. Even during the odd times that the Canucks actually manage to get in the slot, they have this tendency to hold onto the puck too long (i.e. looking for the perfect shot/play, etc.).

On top of that - we often give up terrible high quality chances on our end due to defensemen getting caught and/or our forward being out position due to the aggressive forecheck style that Torts has the Canucks playing.

It's for this reason that despite out-possessing and out-shooting the elite teams in the league, we end up losing games......QUALITY of scoring chances.

This is why I suggest that the Canucks try and tighten up in their own end........since it's obvious that we do not have the personnel to successfully and consistently get into the slot area to generate high quality scoring chances. This will become even more difficult come playoff time.

To overcome this problem, we should either trade for guys that will make us more successful in penetrating the slot, or we should keep our current personnel but simply play a tighter defensive game. Hence, the reason for this thread.
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby Meds » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:38 am

The Brown Knight wrote:In my opinion, it is largely due to the fact that the Canucks don't get many good looks/chances in the slot area.

Sure - they get a lot a ton of shots and do have a pretty high puck possession percentage, but they still have an extremely difficult time penentrating the slot area. Why? Because - they are not fast enough or big enough. Having even ONE of those qualities would suffice, but the Canucks lack in both.


I call bullshit.

Kesler, Booth, Kassian, Hansen, Higgins, and Burrows, all have the size and/or speed to get into the slot for a scoring chance. The problem is the system this team has had drilled into them for the better part of a decade. The Sedins play a perimeter game that has them passing up and down the side boards, into the corner, and in behind the net. They are rarely even looking at the slot for a setup, and our players are out there trying to support that system. It's a timing and chemistry thing for the most part.

One of the reasons Kassian looks like such an ass-hat out there this year is because he is actually trying to make plays that aren't just up and down the boards and around the wall. He's forcing the pass across the middle or into the slot. It isn't working because nobody on his line is ready for it.

Burrows has had plenty of chances from the slot, for the most part they are chances he has created himself by carrying the puck or working a give and go. He just can't put the puck past the goaltender when he actually does get it on net.

Until the Sedins adapt their game to be more than their tired cycle this team is NOT a contender, and will probably be a bottom 3 playoff seed.
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby 5thhorseman » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:56 pm

I have to agree with Meds here and add that the Canucks have relied too much on generating FEW high-quality chances, rather than generating MANY low-quality chances of the throw-it-at-the-net-or-at-someone-heading-towards-the-net type. The team in general follows what the Sedins do; I mean most Nucks players have some kind of Sedin-like move nowadays, especially that fake going one way, then go the other way move. For this team to change either the Sedins need to change their style of play to be more direct, or Kesler needs to rise above them as the next franchise player. Everyone else will follow.
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:53 pm

The reason the Sedins go to the walls is to draw defenders to them, and clear the slot. There is no point in driving everything into shin pads and players collapsing all around the net. YES, we play a perimeter game because we want to draw the defenders into a corner, move it around them, and get a good opportunity towards the net. You're wrong, the Sedins are AWLAYS looking to the slot/net for scoring chances. Why the fuck would they be willing to take such a beating along the boards?

When defenders cannot clear, or aren't in position to help out, you will get those kind of chances. With the way teams collapse around the goal these days, you need to either A) score off the rush (not a good percentage), B) bull your way to the ned, C) move it to the point, or D) draw people out of position. The Sedins are some of the best in the league at doing that. It's too bad that Burrows has been playing without a stick all year, because he should have 8 goals by now.
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby Meds » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:30 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:The reason the Sedins go to the walls is to draw defenders to them, and clear the slot. There is no point in driving everything into shin pads and players collapsing all around the net. YES, we play a perimeter game because we want to draw the defenders into a corner, move it around them, and get a good opportunity towards the net. You're wrong, the Sedins are AWLAYS looking to the slot/net for scoring chances. Why the fuck would they be willing to take such a beating along the boards?

When defenders cannot clear, or aren't in position to help out, you will get those kind of chances. With the way teams collapse around the goal these days, you need to either A) score off the rush (not a good percentage), B) bull your way to the ned, C) move it to the point, or D) draw people out of position. The Sedins are some of the best in the league at doing that. It's too bad that Burrows has been playing without a stick all year, because he should have 8 goals by now.


If you're right Island, why do we see so few opportunities from the slot when the Sedins are on the ice, especially on the PP.

The Sedins try to draw defenders, but it's tough to see where to pass when you have your back to the slot as you try and shield the puck and maintain possession. I've been frustrated with them for years, the number of times they hold up and then aren't looking when a teammate cruises back door or through the slot.

The Sedin's game has been ineffective against the top teams in the league since the 2011 finals. They have done NOTHING to change their approach.

Standing still and waiting for the defense to move doesn't work. They still try it. The slow down our PP to the point where the PK just watches and throws a token charge at them and then backs off and lets them kill a few more seconds trying to look for a target. Watch them out there tonight against Phoenix, they will stand motionless looking for a pass, and while they do jack shit, the other players will look around helplessly because they don't know where to go, and when they finally do go to the net Henrik or Daniel will dump the puck back into the corner. Repeat.
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby The Brown Knight » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:21 am

Meds wrote:I call bullshit.

Kesler, Booth, Kassian, Hansen, Higgins, and Burrows, all have the size and/or speed to get into the slot for a scoring chance. The problem is the system this team has had drilled into them for the better part of a decade. The Sedins play a perimeter game that has them passing up and down the side boards, into the corner, and in behind the net. They are rarely even looking at the slot for a setup, and our players are out there trying to support that system. It's a timing and chemistry thing for the most part.


Got it. Kesler, Booth, Kassian, Hansen, and Burrows are all formidable goal scorers, but our decade old system has prevented them from scoring consistently. :eh:

One of the reasons Kassian looks like such an ass-hat out there this year is because he is actually trying to make plays that aren't just up and down the boards and around the wall. He's forcing the pass across the middle or into the slot. It isn't working because nobody on his line is ready for it.


Got it. Kassian thinks the game at a more superior level than his teammates and linemates, but they are simply not responding to Kassian's creative out-of-the-box thinking ways. :eh:

Burrows has had plenty of chances from the slot, for the most part they are chances he has created himself by carrying the puck or working a give and go. He just can't put the puck past the goaltender when he actually does get it on net.


Well as posters such as Island Nucklehead and Blob McKenzie will happily tell you, Burrows doesnt get paid to "almost" bury those chances. He gets paid to bury those chances......and so far, he hasn't. I agree with you that he actually is one of those guys getting chances in the slot, but until he starts scoring again, you can't use him in your example.

Until the Sedins adapt their game to be more than their tired cycle this team is NOT a contender, and will probably be a bottom 3 playoff seed.


Got it. The Canucks are a middle-of-the-road team because of the Sedins. :eh:
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby Tiger » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:24 am

The Coyotes game just demonstrated a major problem.. The team coasted after being ahead 2 goals.. no pressure either offensively or defensively. This team needs to play a full 60 minute game to win but just doesn't do it..

Meds said :
Until the Sedins adapt their game to be more than their tired cycle this team is NOT a contender, and will probably be a bottom 3 playoff seed.


hmm well the Sedins just got a 4 year contract to continue playing the same game they have played since they came to the Canucks so don't hold your breath ..
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby Meds » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:42 pm

Not sure if anyone caught the highlights from the Flames/Avs game last night, but the Colorado goal that came after Calgary's goaltender screwed up with the puck behind the net was a prime example of what the Canucks don't do enough of.

Forechecker hard after the puck along the end boards, gets it, and there is a teammate waiting in front of the net to receive a pass. Easy goal for the Avs. The Canucks on the other hand run with the forechecker, but nobody in a scoring area, they play to defend against the clearing attempt up the wall instead, stupid really when you consider the quality of the forecheckers we have in Kesler, Hansen, and Burrows. Weise is shaping up to be a decent forechecker, and Higgins and Richardson aren't bad. Those top 3 that I listed though are great at getting in and forcing the turnover, quite often they get the puck themselves but have nowhere to go but around the wall with it.
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Re: Should the Canucks become a more DEFENSIVE team?

Postby Island Nucklehead » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:02 pm

Meds wrote:If you're right Island, why do we see so few opportunities from the slot when the Sedins are on the ice, especially on the PP.


I'm right. :lol:


The Sedin's game has been ineffective against the top teams in the league since the 2011 finals. They have done NOTHING to change their approach.

Standing still and waiting for the defense to move doesn't work. They still try it. The slow down our PP to the point where the PK just watches and throws a token charge at them and then backs off and lets them kill a few more seconds trying to look for a target. Watch them out there tonight against Phoenix, they will stand motionless looking for a pass, and while they do jack shit, the other players will look around helplessly because they don't know where to go, and when they finally do go to the net Henrik or Daniel will dump the puck back into the corner. Repeat.


They are on nearly point-per-game seasons on a team that doesn't score a lot. It seems like whatever they do still works. The problem is not, nor has it ever been(regular season, anyways), the Sedins production. Currently, it's the lack of finish from guys like Burrows, the D's inability to provide the amount of goals they're paid to provide, and the lack of a consistent depth scoring threat.
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