Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

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Hank
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Post by Hank » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:28 pm

herb wrote:
Hank wrote: Thanks Dave, I was like, what?! 17 first & second rounders to come and they want to fire the GM?!
I'm not so sure tanking it an acquiring a boat load of draft picks is much of an accomplishment. That incompetent bunch in Edmonton pulled that feat off, and it still hasn't gotten them out of the cellar.
Getting a boat load of draft picks by tanking or wheeling and dealing is a great accomplishment by any team! What you with them is another matter.

But I did say that the Sabres will probably be more astute to not try to draft, develop and put in a system like the Oilers. As DBR mentioned, they did once have great success with guys like Briere, Drury, Vanek, Miller, etc.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Post by herb » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:00 pm

Hank wrote:Getting a boat load of draft picks by tanking or wheeling and dealing is a great accomplishment by any team! What you with them is another matter.
I disagree. Any idiot can tank and trade away assets for draft picks. Drafting, player development, schrewd signings, and the actual construction of a competitive team are where managers earn their keep.

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Re: On Second Thought........

Post by Art Vandelay » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:02 am

The Brown Knight wrote:After thinking about it a little more, I have come to the realization that suggesting an Erhoff for Shinkark/Booth deal would be extremely ill-advised.
Extremely ill advised and also completely fucking retarded. There is nothing wrong with the D . They aren't moving a top 4 guy because they all have ntc and if they did move one and someone got hurt they would be fucked. I could see Chris Tanev being in play if the right forward became available.

The team needs another high end forward who can preferably play centre . I'm talking about a guy who can score 20 - 25 goals and be a consistent threat on the 2nd line. Hanging your hat on Santorelli and Higgins to carry the mail won't cut it.

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Hockey Widow
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Post by Hockey Widow » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:29 am

Ya, to make a hockey trade to get a legitimate top six will cost us one of Tanev or Corrado plus a high draft pick, at least. They don't come cheap. I'm thinking along the lines of Seguin type player. There are others that may come at that price as well, like Braydon Schenn but as much promise as he has if we pull the trigger at a high price we really need a proven scorer.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Post by SKYO » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:25 am

Brownknight you should just rename this thread
Hank wrote:Apparently, the Sabres have stockpiled 17 first and second rounders up to 2015. Yeah they're bad now, but if you're going to rebuild through the draft it's good to suck for a few years.
Yeah I think the Sabres want to go after McDavid imho.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Post by Island Nucklehead » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:55 am

Hockey Widow wrote:Ya, to make a hockey trade to get a legitimate top six will cost us one of Tanev or Corrado plus a high draft pick, at least. They don't come cheap. I'm thinking along the lines of Seguin type player. There are others that may come at that price as well, like Braydon Schenn but as much promise as he has if we pull the trigger at a high price we really need a proven scorer.
Well the price for Seguin was Eriksson (70 point guy), 2011 1st rounder Joe Morrow, 2009 3rd rounder Reilly Smith and Minor Leaguer Matt Fraser. Dallas also got 3rd line guy Rich Peverly and ECHL player Ryan Button.

So if we're looking for a potential Seguin-esque return, it probably looks like Burrows, Jensen, McNally and Sauve going the other way. For a player of Seguin's talent and potential (party issues aside) and another serviceable top-9 player, I'd do that deal.

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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Post by dbr » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:20 am

Me too.

So now I guess we just need to 1. find a team looking to jettison a 60-70 point player in their early 20s, 2. convince them that the Seguin deal is good precedent for the value of they player, 2a. except instead of a guy on the right side of 30 they're getting a guy on the wrong side, and 3. convince Burrows to waive his NTC.

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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Post by ESQ » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:42 am

herb wrote:
Hank wrote:Getting a boat load of draft picks by tanking or wheeling and dealing is a great accomplishment by any team! What you with them is another matter.
I disagree. Any idiot can tank and trade away assets for draft picks. Drafting, player development, schrewd signings, and the actual construction of a competitive team are where managers earn their keep.
Come on, any idiot can accumulate 17 first and second round picks over 2 years?

Nobody can stockpile like that! ...not even Regier, who has 9, not 17 (http://www.prosportstransactions.com/ho ... Sabres.htm)

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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Post by Southern_Canuck » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:57 am

ESQ wrote:Nobody can stockpile like that! ...not even Regier, who has 9, not 17 (http://www.prosportstransactions.com/ho ... Sabres.htm)
It looks like you missed dbr's post a page back...
dbr wrote:It's 17 picks covering the first two rounds from 2012-2015 - so including Grigorenko, Girgensons, McCabe, Ristolainen, Zadorov, Compher, Hurley and Bailey.
That is a lot of kicks at the can.

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Re: On Second Thought........

Post by The Brown Knight » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:22 am

Art Vandelay wrote: The team needs another high end forward who can preferably play centre . I'm talking about a guy who can score 20 - 25 goals and be a consistent threat on the 2nd line. Hanging your hat on Santorelli and Higgins to carry the mail won't cut it.
Agreed.

Having said that, I agree with Island Knucklehead's line of thought that our current cap situation has Gillis' hands tied......for this year atleast.

Thinking out loud, perhaps the best suggestion that I can come up with is to simply play things out this year.

Wait for guys like Horvat and Shinkaruk to become impact players either next year or the year after, and pray that the twins and Kesler maintain their current level of play. A combination of Booth being bought out + salary cap increasing, will give us far more options for next year and the year after.

Erhoff, as much as I do love the idea of having him back here, will be contracted until 39.
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Re: On Second Thought........

Post by Island Nucklehead » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:04 pm

The Brown Knight wrote: Thinking out loud, perhaps the best suggestion that I can come up with is to simply play things out this year.

Wait for guys like Horvat and Shinkaruk to become impact players either next year or the year after, and pray that the twins and Kesler maintain their current level of play. A combination of Booth being bought out + salary cap increasing, will give us far more options for next year and the year after.

Erhoff, as much as I do love the idea of having him back here, will be contracted until 39.
Pretty much sums it up. We don't have enough cap space to add a quality top-shelf player. Even if we did, we don't have the decent mid-range prospects, young players, or veterans without NTC's to move without seriously jeopardizing our future depth or current team make-up.

Like it or not, and many fans are too shortsighted to accept this, the Canucks are (and have been for a couple seasons) in a holding pattern until the cap goes back up and we re-stock the cupboards. Gillis can continue to make the David Booth type deals and hope they work out, but adding a sure-thing guy with any sort of cap hit or a potential future all-star just isn't an option we have at the moment.

Come the offseason it's a different story. A couple guys I would seriously consider (health-dependant) in UFA are Dave Bolland and if he somehow makes it to Free Agency, Ryan Callahan. I don't think we're going to have the cap money to go after guys like Gaborik, Vanek or Stastny, but a curious one-year reclamation project could be Dany Heatley.

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Re: On Second Thought........

Post by Jovocop » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:13 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
The Brown Knight wrote: Thinking out loud, perhaps the best suggestion that I can come up with is to simply play things out this year.

Wait for guys like Horvat and Shinkaruk to become impact players either next year or the year after, and pray that the twins and Kesler maintain their current level of play. A combination of Booth being bought out + salary cap increasing, will give us far more options for next year and the year after.

Erhoff, as much as I do love the idea of having him back here, will be contracted until 39.
Pretty much sums it up. We don't have enough cap space to add a quality top-shelf player. Even if we did, we don't have the decent mid-range prospects, young players, or veterans without NTC's to move without seriously jeopardizing our future depth or current team make-up.

Like it or not, and many fans are too shortsighted to accept this, the Canucks are (and have been for a couple seasons) in a holding pattern until the cap goes back up and we re-stock the cupboards. Gillis can continue to make the David Booth type deals and hope they work out, but adding a sure-thing guy with any sort of cap hit or a potential future all-star just isn't an option we have at the moment.

Come the offseason it's a different story. A couple guys I would seriously consider (health-dependant) in UFA are Dave Bolland and if he somehow makes it to Free Agency, Ryan Callahan. I don't think we're going to have the cap money to go after guys like Gaborik, Vanek or Stastny, but a curious one-year reclamation project could be Dany Heatley.
You gotta be kidding. With his stupid comments about the Sedins, Bolland gotta be the last player that the Canucks should ever consider...

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Re: On Second Thought........

Post by Island Nucklehead » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:30 pm

Jovocop wrote: You gotta be kidding. With his stupid comments about the Sedins, Bolland gotta be the last player that the Canucks should ever consider...
It's what he's paid to do. I imagine the Blues would take Kesler on their team, despite his chirps about Backes' gf/wife (and Backes is on the record saying he'd like Kesler on his team). He's a guy you absolutely hate playing against, and those are the kind of guys I WANT on MY team.

He's also done nothing but win. World Junior Gold, Memorial Cup, 2 Stanley Cups. Elevates in the playoffs (.50 Regular season ppg vs. .64 playoff ppg). He's on the right side of 30, he's on pace for a career year, and I doubt the Leaves will have enough space to sign him after Phaneuf ($7.5), Franson, Gardiner and Reimer.

If I were the Canucks, and I was looking at making a stiffer team, I'd definitely consider (a healthy) Bolland.

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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Post by SKYO » Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:18 pm

Possible ufa players who could be available by the deadline due to their team not in playoff contention, that this team could use:

gaborik, whitney, cammalleri, hemsky, stajan, moulson, ott, goc.

Whitney or Goc are the more realistic players we could get, but knowing MG he'll splurge and go get Cody Bass.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Post by Hockey Widow » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:00 pm

Again, do you want to give up the assets to grab one of this players for a playoff run? Given that most of us seem to agree we are not a true contender right now should we be parting with the assets for a high end rental? To me it would be crazy. If we could get a top 6 or high end D man with term sure. I just don't want to see MG pay deadline day prices for a soon to be FA top six. I' fine with the tinkering for depth deals at deadline but just not the price to land one of those guys.

I still believe that this team has to insert the younger guys and let them play. It may not make us what we want to be this year or even next but it can only help us from then on out.
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