Re-sign the Sedins thread

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Re-sign the Sedins?

Yes
33
75%
No
5
11%
Maybe
4
9%
Who gives a shit
2
5%
 
Total votes : 44

Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby dbr » Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:39 am

$7.5m isn't a cap hit where I'd be rushing to get a deal done.

I think the Sedins will be strong players this year and I think their numbers will head back in the right direction (and I think someone would give them this contract in UFA pretty well no matter what) but I don't think they'll head so far in that direction that they could use the market to leverage that much more than $7.5m each out of the Canucks.

Don't get me wrong, if they walk it's a short term disaster for this team and there's no way we'd recoup even close to their value out of $15m of free agent money. In fact I'd rather not even try to spend that in a single offseason because there probably aren't two FAs a year worth Sedin money or even close.

But yeah, I think they want to be here and I think if they want to get paid close to what high end first liners will in this CBA (ie. $8m territory) then you might as well wait and make sure they are going to produce like that before making the commitment.

If you can get them signed at under $7m per then just go ahead and do it now because with the way the market is going and with the likelihood that their statistical output returns to expected levels (ie. higher on ice shooting percentage, more powerplay production) it's basically a guarantee that they'll increase their value above that mark over the course of the season.
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby Tiger » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:19 pm

dbr wrote:$7.5m isn't a cap hit where I'd be rushing to get a deal done.

I think the Sedins will be strong players this year and I think their numbers will head back in the right direction (and I think someone would give them this contract in UFA pretty well no matter what) but I don't think they'll head so far in that direction that they could use the market to leverage that much more than $7.5m each out of the Canucks.

Don't get me wrong, if they walk it's a short term disaster for this team and there's no way we'd recoup even close to their value out of $15m of free agent money. In fact I'd rather not even try to spend that in a single offseason because there probably aren't two FAs a year worth Sedin money or even close.

But yeah, I think they want to be here and I think if they want to get paid close to what high end first liners will in this CBA (ie. $8m territory) then you might as well wait and make sure they are going to produce like that before making the commitment.

If you can get them signed at under $7m per then just go ahead and do it now because with the way the market is going and with the likelihood that their statistical output returns to expected levels (ie. higher on ice shooting percentage, more powerplay production) it's basically a guarantee that they'll increase their value above that mark over the course of the season.

Problem is they are 2 players.. and the cap hit would be 15 million.. There is no reason for your expectations of the Sedins to increase production now.. just your hope .. I expect them to be top second line players soon.
So maybe a wait an see attitude should be taken before paying out about 1/4 of our cap ( yeah it may go up ) to them.
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:40 pm

dbr wrote: there probably aren't two FAs a year worth Sedin money or even close.



This is a convenient fact that all of the mouth breathers continue to avoid. Just ask them where the scoring will come from and they scatter to their holes like rats. I do not want to see the twins get 7.5 per each but if they aren't back maybe the short bus gang can inform us where the offence will come from in the name of actual players.

I maintain they are somewhere in the 6 - 6.75 million range but I have to howl at the pinheads that think they will sign for 4 - 5 million per.
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby RoyalDude » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:43 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
dbr wrote: there probably aren't two FAs a year worth Sedin money or even close.



This is a convenient fact that all of the mouth breathers continue to avoid. Just ask them where the scoring will come from and they scatter to their holes like rats. I do not want to see the twins get 7.5 per each but if they aren't back maybe the short bus gang can inform us where the offence will come from in the name of actual players.

I maintain they are somewhere in the 6 - 6.75 million range but I have to howl at the pinheads that think they will sign for 4 - 5 million per.


What's worriesome is that the Sedins can't really score anymore. Hank struggles to get over 10 goals a year now and Dank barely gets over 20. At 33 years of age its no surprise. I do like the Sedins though, but where the fuck is our goalscoring gonna come from? Santorelli? Dalple? Richardson? Over the Blue Line Soft, floating, wrister - Kesler? David Booth? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:55 pm

Sedins are 70 - 80 point players. They have always had far more assists than golas. Kesler has been decimated with injuries for two seasons but lets not give him a pass at all. Ditto for Booth. I am curious to know who replaces the twins production that is an upcoming UFA. I mean they're so lousy and shitty there must be a hundred guys out there on July 1st that are better.
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:56 pm

Meds wrote:I'd be ok with 4 years @ $27.4M.....$6.85M per. Takes them to 38.

They left money on the table last time, this gives them a raise of 3/4 of a million.

Blob Mckenzie wrote:30 million over 4 is not a deal I like for the Canucks. I would sign them to two year extensions at around 7 but if they want 4 years it has to be somewhere in the 6- 6.5 million range. They are not players in the Datsyuk/Zetterberg level, they are a cut below. A combined 15 million per for these guys could come back to bite Gillis in the ass.



They may not be Datsyukian when it comes to the highlight reel or takeaway numbers, and they may mot have been as integral to both the PP AND the PK, but their value to this organization is the same as theirs to the Red Wings.

Over the last 5 seasons (duration of this current contract).....

Datsyuk has been a 1.02 ppg player for Detroit.

Zetterberg has been a 0.95 ppg player for Detroit.

Henrik has been a 1.10 ppg player for Vancouver.

Daniel has been a 1.09 ppg player for Vancouver.

But you're right Blob, they are a clear cut below Datsyuk and Zetterberg. :roll:

Actually it looks like their value is a bit higher to the Canucks......



Their value may be more to the Canucks but they are not as good as Datsyuk and Zetterburg.
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby Meds » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:11 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Meds wrote:I'd be ok with 4 years @ $27.4M.....$6.85M per. Takes them to 38.

They left money on the table last time, this gives them a raise of 3/4 of a million.

Blob Mckenzie wrote:30 million over 4 is not a deal I like for the Canucks. I would sign them to two year extensions at around 7 but if they want 4 years it has to be somewhere in the 6- 6.5 million range. They are not players in the Datsyuk/Zetterberg level, they are a cut below. A combined 15 million per for these guys could come back to bite Gillis in the ass.



They may not be Datsyukian when it comes to the highlight reel or takeaway numbers, and they may mot have been as integral to both the PP AND the PK, but their value to this organization is the same as theirs to the Red Wings.

Over the last 5 seasons (duration of this current contract).....

Datsyuk has been a 1.02 ppg player for Detroit.

Zetterberg has been a 0.95 ppg player for Detroit.

Henrik has been a 1.10 ppg player for Vancouver.

Daniel has been a 1.09 ppg player for Vancouver.

But you're right Blob, they are a clear cut below Datsyuk and Zetterberg. :roll:

Actually it looks like their value is a bit higher to the Canucks......



Their value may be more to the Canucks but they are not as good as Datsyuk and Zetterburg.


I disagree. I think Datsyuk is slicker and has been the better 2-way skater, but I think you are suffering from a case of "the grass is always greener". Both Hank and Danny have out scored Datsyuk and Zetterberg over the last 5 seasons. They haven't been put in the situation to play defense since Crawford was the coach, so we don't know what we'll see this year.

They are just different players and even on the same team I think they would be of the same value to that team, just in different roles. Honestly, I think Datsyuk is a great player, but I think he gets a bit blown out of proportion because of his highlight reel flash and dash. He does the same thing, just with more style.

I'd also like to add that in their best years both Hank and Dank played full seasons and outscored Datsyuk's best season where he played the whole thing.....and Hank's season was done while his brother was out for 20 games or something like that.
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby dbr » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:03 am

Tiger wrote: Problem is they are 2 players.. and the cap hit would be 15 million..


Thanks for the fucking insight. I know they are two players, everyone knows they are two players, two times 6.1 is 12.2 and two times 7.5 is 15. If they underperform it's twice as bad and if they overperform it's twice as good (except for old dustbags like yourself for whom that outcome is simply not possible).

There is no reason for your expectations of the Sedins to increase production now.. just your hope .. I expect them to be top second line players soon.


Well last year Daniel's shooting percentage was about 2/3 of what it usually is so if that returns to his career average you're talking about almost 10 more goals over last year (projecting that total over 82 games).

Then there is the team's powerplay which fell to 22nd overall last year after finishing 1st, 1st, 5th the previous three seasons.. if the Sedins continue to be the cornerstone of the first unit (they will) and if the unit even comes halfway back and ends up in the top ten you're still looking at another 10-20 goals this season and you can bet the Sedins will register points on most of them.

So I mean yeah, if the Sedins continue to do exactly what they did last year and the percentages work out the way they usually do, and the powerplay doesn't suck quite so hard, there is reason to believe they'll add another 5-10 points to their totals over the course of 82 games.

(Which would make them at least point a game players, of which there are about 15-20 any given year. So yeah.. )

I mean, maybe they don't.. maybe they play worse this year than they did last year, maybe they play the same way and the percentages still don't even out. That's why I said, in the first fucking sentence of my post, in its own paragraph right off the hop so I don't see how even a lack of attention span would excuse someone failing to notice it....

dbr wrote:$7.5m isn't a cap hit where I'd be rushing to get a deal done.


So maybe a wait an see attitude should be taken before paying out about 1/4 of our cap ( yeah it may go up ) to them.


Yeah. That's what I just fucking said.
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby herb » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:40 am

dbr wrote:Thanks for the fucking insight. I know they are two players, everyone knows they are two players, two times 6.1 is 12.2 and two times 7.5 is 15. If they underperform it's twice as bad and if they overperform it's twice as good (except for old dustbags like yourself for whom that outcome is simply not possible).


Ahhh, I feel like shit this morning, but this made my day. Thanks Dave! :lol:
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby Uncle dans leg » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:06 am

dbr wrote:Daves' morning rage



What Tiger saw...

Image
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby Jovocop » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:17 am

TEAM Radio ‏@TEAM1040
RT@SatiarShah McKenzie says Canucks are grinding away at contract extensions for the Sedins & expects a modest annual increase #TEAM1040
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby SKYO » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:51 pm

lol that's awesome dbr/udl.

@FarhanLaljiTSN

It doesn't appear that the Sedins will have an extension in place by opening night.

Neither side seems worried about negotiating in-season


Guessing in a coupla weeks it'll be done so it's not a distraction.
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby Island Nucklehead » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:52 pm

Jovocop wrote:
TEAM Radio ‏@TEAM1040
RT@SatiarShah McKenzie says Canucks are grinding away at contract extensions for the Sedins & expects a modest annual increase #TEAM1040


When the Sedins started their current deal @ $6.1M/per, the salary cap was $56.8M. So that was 10.7% of our cap per Sedin.

11% of a $65M cap would be $7.15M per season. So $7M per is about equal to what they accounted for last time.

I would rather have $14M tied up in two Sedins than $13.25M tied up in Kessel/Clarkson or Kessel/Lupul.
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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby Uncle dans leg » Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:08 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
When the Sedins started their current deal @ $6.1M/per, the salary cap was $56.8M. So that was 10.7% of our cap per Sedin.

11% of a $65M cap would be $7.15M per season. So $7M per is about equal to what they accounted for last time.

I would rather have $14M tied up in two Sedins than $13.25M tied up in Kessel/Clarkson or Kessel/Lupul.

Good point. Just because they left that much dough on the table before shouldn't mean they automatically do this again. -see Burrows most recent extension

BTW...watching Docster squirm was worth the price of admission :thumbs:




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Re: Re-sign the Sedins thread

Postby Island Nucklehead » Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:17 pm

Uncle dans leg wrote:Good point. Just because they left that much dough on the table before shouldn't mean they automatically do this again. -see Burrows most recent extension


I agree. And I like the wait-and-see approach, especially with Tortorella in charge. They will have options in Free Agency, but most teams won't have the $15-$16 available to sign both of them (either because they are too close to the cap or have internal budgets).

I understand that these guys probably aren't PPG guys without one another (and yes, I know Hank did well while Daniel had a broken foot). I think there needs to be some give from them to stay together. If they're looking for a Kessel type deal I'm not interested. We've started stocking the farm with some decent prospects and if they want 7/8 years at $8M per it would be time to consider tanking for some premier kids.

They are individuals, and you are looking at 140-160 points/year combined, but you're committing 20%+ of your salary to two players that you can't shuffle around the lineup easily and could be second line players near the end of their deals.

Basically, I won't be upset if they get $7M per on a medium term deal. If they go max term and high salary I don't think we will be able to support them effectively.
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