Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Island Nucklehead » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:35 pm

Strangelove wrote:
.... just in time for the coming Liles buyout to hit the books! :thumbs:


As in, when the buyout window opens again next summer? IIRC, all buyouts are done until next summer...

The Leafs only options are to trade, waive, or stick him in the minors and save themselves $900K on the cap.
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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Strangelove » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:26 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Strangelove wrote:
.... just in time for the coming Liles buyout to hit the books! :thumbs:


As in, when the buyout window opens again next summer? IIRC, all buyouts are done until next summer...

The Leafs only options are to trade, waive, or stick him in the minors and save themselves $900K on the cap.


Yup, and it's $925K this season.

I'm saying they're stuck with Liles for another year and then he's buyout material.

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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Strangelove » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:40 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:My guess is they WILL dump Liles in a same type of deal they were on the receiving end of when they got Franson by also accepting Lombardi. Trading Liles and a prospect to get him off their books. Taking back nothing but plugs they can stuff in the minors.


Seriously, Liles + his contract = so horrible I just can't see this happening with the crappy Leaf prospects.

The only good one is Morgan Rielly, and he's TOO good to give up in a dump deal.

No one is going to take Liles off their hands right now.

MAYBE in the summer if a miracle happens and he is spectacular this year.

But yeah, not gonna happen....

Although perhaps they could add a sweetener and deal him to a rich team with a Compliance Buyout

(next summer).

As I'm sure you're aware, the Leaves have used both of their Compliance Buyouts.

Island Nucklehead wrote:Speaking of teams over the salary cap, Boston and Philly will demote someone for day 1 and then place Savard and Pronger on LTIR. Detroit (26 men still on roster) has to clear about $2.3M. I'd wonder if Tootoo ($1.9M) or Bertuzzi ($2M) hit the waiver wire. Pittsburgh (23 men on roster currently) has to clear about $1.1M in salary. Does Tanner Glass ($1.1M) becomes the odd man out there?


Agreed, there's gonna be some interesting names coming up on the waiver wire.

BTW you can't place a player on LTIR until after the 2nd game of the season.

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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:39 pm

Strangelove wrote:Seriously, Liles + his contract = so horrible I just can't see this happening with the crappy Leaf prospects.


You don't think Colorado (10M in cap space) would take Liles if he came with Tyler Biggs or Joe Colbourne for a guy like Desbiens?


BTW you can't place a player on LTIR until after the 2nd game of the season.


Since when? All teams must be cap compliant by 5pm the day after training camps end. Players can be placed on LTIR starting day 1. The solution for most of these teams will be to throw their waiver ineligible players into the minors (notionally, because they won't go anywhere), and then place the injured player on LTIR. The trick for the Flyers or Bruins, will be maximizing the LTIR benefit. (ie, getting as close to the cap as possible, and THEN using the LTIR cushion). So the Flyers can put Pronger on LTIR as soon as camp ends, but they will only be able to go over the cap by the $1.4M they are currently over. It would make more sense to try and get barely under the cap, with Pronger "active" and place him on LTIR before their first game, giving them his full contract to play with.

Basically, if the Flyers put Pronger on LTIR without getting under the cap, they are deemed "good to go", only $1.4M over the cap. By getting under it and THEN putting Pronger on LTIR, they can go over the upper limit by the value of his contract.

The Canucks have played this game in the past (maybe with Salo? can't remember). They could have placed a player on LTIR, but made moves before hand to get as close as possible to the cap when they finally did so.
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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby BigTuna » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:27 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:My guess is they WILL dump Liles in a same type of deal they were on the receiving end of when they got Franson by also accepting Lombardi. Trading Liles and a prospect to get him off their books. Taking back nothing but plugs they can stuff in the minors.


Seriously, Liles + his contract = so horrible I just can't see this happening with the crappy Leaf prospects.

The only good one is Morgan Rielly, and he's TOO good to give up in a dump deal.

No one is going to take Liles off their hands right now.

MAYBE in the summer if a miracle happens and he is spectacular this year.

But yeah, not gonna happen....

Although perhaps they could add a sweetener and deal him to a rich team with a Compliance Buyout

(next summer).

As I'm sure you're aware, the Leaves have used both of their Compliance Buyouts.

Island Nucklehead wrote:Speaking of teams over the salary cap, Boston and Philly will demote someone for day 1 and then place Savard and Pronger on LTIR. Detroit (26 men still on roster) has to clear about $2.3M. I'd wonder if Tootoo ($1.9M) or Bertuzzi ($2M) hit the waiver wire. Pittsburgh (23 men on roster currently) has to clear about $1.1M in salary. Does Tanner Glass ($1.1M) becomes the odd man out there?


Agreed, there's gonna be some interesting names coming up on the waiver wire.

BTW you can't place a player on LTIR until after the 2nd game of the season.


Just because Rielly is the only one you know about, doesn't make him the only good one. Teams would love to get their hands on guys like Biggs, Percy, Finn, Leivo, ETC.
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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Strangelove » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:25 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Strangelove wrote:Seriously, Liles + his contract = so horrible I just can't see this happening with the crappy Leaf prospects.


You don't think Colorado (10M in cap space) would take Liles if he came with Tyler Biggs or Joe Colbourne for a guy like Desbiens?


Absolutely NOT.

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Strangelove wrote:BTW you can't place a player on LTIR until after the 2nd game of the season.


Since when? All teams must be cap compliant by 5pm the day after training camps end. Players can be placed on LTIR starting day 1.


Actually it's Day 2.

https://twitter.com/davegisaac/status/3 ... 7467549696

Every Flyers fan knows this.

Every year there are rumours about UFAs they have secretly agreed to sign on Day 2.

Day 2 is when Pronger can go on the LTIR.

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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Strangelove » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:29 pm

BigTuna wrote:Just because Rielly is the only one you know about, doesn't make him the only good one. Teams would love to get their hands on guys like Biggs, Percy, Finn, Leivo, ETC.


I probably know more about them than you do.

See I'm am an extremely dedicated Leaf-hater.

I do my research.

Trust me, they all suck.

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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:44 pm

Tom Wilson in Washington is having a great pre-season in Washington, scoring goals and fighting galore...

Would you trade Zack Kassian straight up for this guy? I would
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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:52 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:
Strangelove wrote:BTW you can't place a player on LTIR until after the 2nd game of the season.


Since when? All teams must be cap compliant by 5pm the day after training camps end. Players can be placed on LTIR starting day 1.


Actually it's Day 2.

https://twitter.com/davegisaac/status/3 ... 7467549696

Every Flyers fan knows this.

Every year there are rumours about UFAs they have secretly agreed to sign on Day 2.

Day 2 is when Pronger can go on the LTIR.


http://www.capgeek.com/faq/how-does-lon ... -LTIR-work

All of this is best explained with an example: The upper limit is $70.0 million and a team has a cap payroll or "Averaged Club Salary" of $71.5 million on the final day of training camp. Player A, carrying a $2.0 million cap hit, is placed on LTIR that day. The club is deemed to have already replaced the injured player and is not eligible for any additional relief, meaning if Player A stays on LTIR all year, the team's cap payroll or "Averaged Club Salary" cannot exceed $71.5 million.
That same team, on the same day, could have loaned two players with cap hits totalling $1.5 million to the minors, reducing their cap payroll to $70.0 million (exactly the upper limit). Then, on opening day, the team could have placed Player A on LTIR, thus allowing their cap payroll or "Averaged Club Salary" to reach $72.0M with replacement players. In other words, this subtle change in LTIR placement gives the team access to an additional $500,000 in cap space throughout the season if the player stays on LTIR. After placing the player on LTIR on opening day, the team could then recall the two demoted players earning $1.5M and still have $500,000 of cap space.
Once the injured player is healthy, the team must reduce its cap payroll or "Averaged Club Salary" below the upper limit before the player can be removed from LTIR.


So, every Flyers fan SHOULD read this.
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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Strangelove » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:58 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:So, every Flyers fan SHOULD read this.


Your link is wrong (I actually read it just before I put up that last post).

Yeah, I know it's capgeek.

Go read some Flyers boards.

Well Capgeek isn't wrong per se, they were trying to make a totally different point

... same one you were going on about in your previous post...

... and in so-doing they overlooked a not-relevant-to-the-point detail in the process.

Detail = No LTIR until Day 2 of the regular season.

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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:34 pm

Strangelove wrote:Detail = No LTIR until Day 2 of the regular season.


That's so weird. I wonder how the Vancouver Canucks placed Demitra (RIP) on the LTIR on DAY 1 of the 2009-10 season. Ditto for the Flyers and Mike Rathje who spent 193 of 193 days of the season on LTIR.

Bieksa and Salo were both placed on LTIR on Day 1 (October 7) of the 2010-11 season. Ditto for Daymond Langkow of the Flames.
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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Strangelove » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:24 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Strangelove wrote:Detail = No LTIR until Day 2 of the regular season.


That's so weird. I wonder how the Vancouver Canucks placed Demitra (RIP) on the LTIR on DAY 1 of the 2009-10 season. Ditto for the Flyers and Mike Rathje who spent 193 of 193 days of the season on LTIR.

Bieksa and Salo were both placed on LTIR on Day 1 (October 7) of the 2010-11 season. Ditto for Daymond Langkow of the Flames.


I think you're confusing IR and LTIR.

LTIR brings cap relief, the other does NOT.

For example please note that Pavol Demitra (RIP) is officially listed as a "non-roster injured"

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=5006 ... nhl-search

... on the NHL 2009-10 Opening Day Rosters report.

And here is an explanation (Briere in this case) of how a "non-roster injured" status differs from LTIR:

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013 ... erinjured/

Note, a team does not receive cap relief until the player is placed on LTIR.

And yeah that can't happen until the second day of the season. :mex:

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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:51 pm

This is directly from the NHL CBA. Looks awfully similar to cap geek, and I don't see anything saying a team has to wait until Day 2 of the Regular season.

Prior to Opening Day Illustrations:
Illustration #1: The Upper Limit in a League Year is $70.0 million. On the last day of Training Camp, a Club has an Averaged Club Salary of $71.5 million (excluding Earnable Performance Bonuses up to the full amount of the Performance Bonus Cushion). A Player who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $2.0 million becomes unfit to play on the last day of Training Camp, and on the same day, the Club Loans a Player who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $1.5 million to the minors, decreasing its Averaged Club Salary to $70.0 million. On Opening Day, the Club exercises the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception on the unfit-to-play Player. The Club may then replace the unfit-to-play Player with any Player or Players who have SPCs with an (aggregate) Averaged Amount of $2.0 million. If these replacements are made on Opening Day and are maintained through the conclusion of the season, the Club's Averaged Club Salary is $72.0 million, as the Club is permitted to exceed the Upper Limit by $2.0 million because of the Bona-Fide LongTerm Injury/Illness Exception.


There are 4 "Prior to Opening Day Illustrations" in the CBA. They all say teams can begin claiming LTIR on opening day.

This one is directly related to the Pronger case:

Illustration #4: The Upper Limit in a League Year is $70.0 million. A Player who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $2.0 million becomes unfit to play on the last day of Training Camp, and on the same
day, his Club exercises the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception on such Player
. On Opening Day, the Club has an Averaged Club Salary of $71.5 million (excluding Earnable Performance Bonuses up to the full amount of the Performance Bonus Cushion). The Club is deemed to have already fully replaced the unfit-to-play Player with any Player or Players on the Opening Day Roster.


http://cdn.agilitycms.com/nhlpacom/PDF/ ... 13_CBA.pdf
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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Strangelove » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:57 pm

Here's a news article from 20 minutes ago:

http://www.delcotimes.com/sports/20130927/as-preseason-ends-flyers-having-trouble-going-forward

The Flyers have to get down to a regulation roster as of Monday afternoon, but final cuts could come as early as Saturday night. They’d also have to do something to get compliant with the $64.3 million payroll max by late Monday, and can’t move Chris Pronger’s money (or concussed Marc-Andre Bourdon) to LTIR right away.


Do you think I make things up just for fun?

This issue has been talked about ad nauseam all over the hockey world.

I read everything Flyers as they are my second favorite team.

Why don't you take a little look around the 'net.

Do you really think a hundred thousands Flyer fans are wrong and you're right? :roll:

Perhaps your articles are talking about retroactively to the beginning of the season.

Or perhaps your quoting from the old CBA (you never give links so who knows).

Or perhaps what I'm talking about gets lost in the legaleze.

But you can't officially place a player on LTIR until Day 2 of the regular season.

This fact is glossed over a lot.

Go talk to Flyer fans if you don't believe me...

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Re: Around the league (signings, RFAs injuries)

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:41 pm

Strangelove wrote:Or perhaps your quoting from the old CBA (you never give links so who knows).


Island Nucklehead wrote:This is directly from the NHL CBA. Looks awfully similar to cap geek, and I don't see anything saying a team has to wait until Day 2 of the Regular season.

http://cdn.agilitycms.com/nhlpacom/PDF/ ... 13_CBA.pdf


Current CBA, with the examples I quoted, referencing clubs exercising Long-Term Injury Exception on Opening Day.


Maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read on Twitter.
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