Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

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dbr
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by dbr » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:15 am

So...

Giguere's been a backup goaltender for four years now and he's posted stats like a mediocre backup, with few exceptions, for five.

Of course his playoff stats are better because he was a playoff starter at his absolute peak, his game cratered and he may never see playoff action again at this rate.

Meanwhile Luongo is the worse player with an awful contract because of a decade of stellar play in the regular season, with stellar play + a large handful of brutal games in a much smaller playoff career.

OK. I mean I'm not going to say Luongo is an elite goaltender right now and is poised to take his play to new heights at age 34 but that's asinine.

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by dbr » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:35 am

Mondi wrote:No, I think the point is that a guy like Giguere has stepped his game up in the playoffs, whereas Luongo has stepped his game down.The idea that Giguere only played in the playoffs at his absolute peak and therefore his stats aren't representative is silly. Look at the teams he has been on for the past four seasons. Conversely, Luongo has only played in the playoffs during his prime 27-33. And he's only had stacked or relatively stacked Vancouver teams in front of him.
JS Giguere picked up 39 of his 52 career playoff games in two playoff years: the first at age 25 in which he turned in a HOF-calibre performance and the second at age 29 when he wasn't as good but had two of the league's most effective defensemen in front of him.

Since then he has seven playoff games in six years (and zero in five) has his stats have gone into the toilet. He stepped up his game in a huge way in 2003 but in the latter run he was just .004 over his regular season save percentage (less than a goal every ten games).

Yeah he has been on crap teams the last few years and he has done okay under the circumstances but just okay - he also did just okay his last year in Anaheim let's not forget.

So basically we're saying "oooh look how much Giguere stepped up, look how clutch he is" when he has one monster playoff performance, one other good run behind one of the best teams of the salary cap era and just 13 other games all played before the age of 31 when his game fell off a cliff (and took his career regular season status with it.. ironically making him even more clutch by comparison :crazy: ).

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vic
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by vic » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:27 am

Tiger wrote:
PS Gigi also has a Conn Smyth and a Stanley ring :) and he isn't GREAT !
Giguere also had at least one guy named Chris Pronger or Scott Neidermayer if not both standing in front of him at all times.
Put Luongo in net behind those two and I bet he has at least one ring too.

Of course you (and the media) gives credit to the goalie. Just like Team Canada lost in Torino because the team wasn't good, it had nothing to do with the goaltending. They won in Vancouver because the team was that good - Lou gets no credit for that gold medal.

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Todd Bersnoozi
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by Todd Bersnoozi » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:41 am

vic wrote:Giguere also had at least one guy named Chris Pronger or Scott Neidermayer if not both standing in front of him at all times.
Put Luongo in net behind those two and I bet he has at least one ring too.

Don't forget, Giggy did it with a weak/underdog Ducks team too that had no Nieds and Prongs. Well, he backstopped them to the finals, but lost to the Devils I think. The year Kariya got knocked out by Scott Stevens.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=84 ... nhl-search

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by Canuck-One » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:02 pm

Am I wrong in but didn't we trade Schneider? Isn't Luongo our starting goalie? I guess it's hard for some people to let go. Camp opens soon so it might be better to move forward.

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by ESQ » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:12 pm

dbr wrote:
Mondi wrote:No, I think the point is that a guy like Giguere has stepped his game up in the playoffs, whereas Luongo has stepped his game down.The idea that Giguere only played in the playoffs at his absolute peak and therefore his stats aren't representative is silly. Look at the teams he has been on for the past four seasons. Conversely, Luongo has only played in the playoffs during his prime 27-33. And he's only had stacked or relatively stacked Vancouver teams in front of him.
JS Giguere picked up 39 of his 52 career playoff games in two playoff years: the first at age 25 in which he turned in a HOF-calibre performance and the second at age 29 when he wasn't as good but had two of the league's most effective defensemen in front of him.

Since then he has seven playoff games in six years (and zero in five) has his stats have gone into the toilet.
This is what people don't recognize about Luongo's greatness - he has been an elite goalie for so long. Giguere would be elite - if you only looked at the 2003-2008 stretch. Since then he's a .500 backup goalie.

Luongo had 7 consecutive 30+win seasons. That puts him in a tie for second all time with Patrick Roy, Henrik Lundqvist, and Ryan Miller, and behind only EDIT Martin Brodeur. And that is in spite of Luongo starting his career with the shittiest franchise in the League.
Last edited by ESQ on Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by Meds » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:04 pm

Tiger wrote:Credit ?? The Doc wants to call him "Great" :?:
Mondi .. not quite that enthusiastic ...
Luo had 1 .. Great Playoff run.. 12 games in 2007 .. v % .941 :shock:
Hasn't come close to that sv% since
Compare :
Luongo 34
Regular season sv% .919 Playoffs ? .913 Lou's stats drop a little in the playoffs
Giguere * 2 years older
Regular season sv%.913 Playoffs ? .925 Yep.. stats go way up for the playoffs..
When Giguere hit 34 his salary went down to 1.25 mill..
So ? the Canucks made a very bad contract..
and Lou is still a very good .. NOT GREAT .. good .. goaltender

PS Gigi also has a Conn Smyth and a Stanley ring :) and he isn't GREAT !
Giguere is 2 years older and has played 172 fewer games.

His career numbers are similar to Luongo's, but his season to season performances have been up and down like a yo-yo by comparison.

He won a cup on a stacked Anaheim team, and he had an amazing run to the finals and a Conn Smythe trophy in 2002-03.

Other than those years, Giguere has been pretty average as starting goaltenders go.

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by ukcanuck » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:05 pm

Mondi wrote:I'm not on the Giggy > Luongo train. But, I will say this: What truly great players are known for performing worse in the playoffs than the regular season?

Any comparison of Luongo with Roy and Brodeur begins and ends with the numbers 4, 3, and 0.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by Todd Bersnoozi » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:01 am

Put it this way, if Lou could win us one stinking cup, I'd easily consider him the best goalie ever for our franchise. He could suck for the remainder of his contract by being a backup or minor leaguer and I'd still say he's awesome and I wouldn't complain about paying him the rest of his contract. :lol:

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by Uncle dans leg » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:18 am

Todd Bersnoozi wrote: I wouldn't complain about paying him the rest of his contract.
Of course this is made decidedly easier due to the fact that you don't actually sign the cheques ;)
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by ukcanuck » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:05 pm

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:Put it this way, if Lou could win us one stinking cup, I'd easily consider him the best goalie ever for our franchise. He could suck for the remainder of his contract by being a backup or minor leaguer and I'd still say he's awesome and I wouldn't complain about paying him the rest of his contract. :lol:
Seriously? You don't already consider him easily the best goalie the Canucks have ever had???
...wtf have you been sleeping the past five years?
No goalie has backdropped the Canucks to a better record and check it out only Maclean ever came as close in the playoffs and he only did it once.

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by Meds » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:05 pm

ESQ wrote:
dbr wrote:
Mondi wrote:No, I think the point is that a guy like Giguere has stepped his game up in the playoffs, whereas Luongo has stepped his game down.The idea that Giguere only played in the playoffs at his absolute peak and therefore his stats aren't representative is silly. Look at the teams he has been on for the past four seasons. Conversely, Luongo has only played in the playoffs during his prime 27-33. And he's only had stacked or relatively stacked Vancouver teams in front of him.
JS Giguere picked up 39 of his 52 career playoff games in two playoff years: the first at age 25 in which he turned in a HOF-calibre performance and the second at age 29 when he wasn't as good but had two of the league's most effective defensemen in front of him.

Since then he has seven playoff games in six years (and zero in five) has his stats have gone into the toilet.
This is what people don't recognize about Luongo's greatness - he has been an elite goalie for so long. Giguere would be elite - if you only looked at the 2003-2008 stretch. Since then he's a .500 backup goalie.

Luongo had 7 consecutive 30+win seasons. That puts him in a tie for second all time with Patrick Roy, Henrik Lundqvist, and Ryan Miller, and behind only Patrick Roy. And that is in spite of Luongo starting his career with the shittiest franchise in the League.
Wait a second.

How is he tied for second WITH Patrick Roy (an others), but also behind Patrick Roy.....

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by CrzyCanuck » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:24 am

ukcanuck wrote:
Todd Bersnoozi wrote:Put it this way, if Lou could win us one stinking cup, I'd easily consider him the best goalie ever for our franchise. He could suck for the remainder of his contract by being a backup or minor leaguer and I'd still say he's awesome and I wouldn't complain about paying him the rest of his contract. :lol:
Seriously? You don't already consider him easily the best goalie the Canucks have ever had???
...wtf have you been sleeping the past five years?
No goalie has backdropped the Canucks to a better record and check it out only Maclean ever came as close in the playoffs and he only did it once.

I guess he still completely erased the memory of the Snow/Hirsch tandem, or Weekes/Burke/Potvin/[insert any name] goalie coalition
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by Todd Bersnoozi » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:16 am

ukcanuck wrote:Seriously? You don't already consider him easily the best goalie the Canucks have ever had???
...wtf have you been sleeping the past five years?
No goalie has backdropped the Canucks to a better record and check it out only Maclean ever came as close in the playoffs and he only did it once.
Don't get me wrong, I like Lou and all. He's a great regular season goalie and he has done a really good job for us over the years, but I think if I'm going into the playoffs, I'd take a Captain Kirk in his prime over him. Kirk had some good years, but not the same longevity of success like Lou; however, I dunno. I think Lou's meltdowns leaves a big question mark for me. When we needed Lou to step up the most, he played like a panzy being kicked around like a rag doll, which just totally deflated the team. On the other hand, Kirk's calm and cool demeanor inspired confidence to his team. He was able to hold the fort and give his team a chance to win when it mattered most. All the regular season stuff doesn't matter much to me, it's all about what a guy/team does in the playoffs.

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Post by vic » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:04 pm

Todd Bersnoozi wrote: On the other hand, Kirk's calm and cool demeanor inspired confidence to his team. He was able to hold the fort and give his team a chance to win when it mattered most. All the regular season stuff doesn't matter much to me, it's all about what a guy/team does in the playoffs.
What are you smoking?

Career Playoff Stats (Both goalies have/had played 100% of their playoff games as a Canuck):

KM:
7 Playoffs - 68GP - 34W - 34L - 2.84GAA - .907SV%

RL:
6 Playoffs - 64GP - 32W - 31L - 2.54GAA - .915SV%

When you talk about holding the fort, the above stats show that RL has held the fort better than KM.

McLean had the privilege of playing behind a sqad that scored 19 times in the 94 SCF. Had the team only managed 8 goals like the 2011 squad, that series would have been over in 4 or 5.

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