Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Potatoe1 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:32 pm

tantalum wrote:Cody Hodgson was abyssmal defensively. I didn't say worst defensive player but he really was not good at all.

I believe From plus/minus to possession stats the Sedins had good numbers this past season.


The flip side is that Kassian is / was pretty fucking terrible defensively last season as well (most 22 year olds are).

Not saying the trade was a mistake but Zack has to step up this season. Cody is probably going to hang in the 65-75 point range and will slowly improve his defensive game. He's going to be a very good player and if you don't see it you really are living in the "we traded him so he sucks" denial mode.

I like Kassian a lot but if he doesn't turn into the tough, 45-50 point top6 guy we all hope for, this trade is going to look like a major fuck up on GMMG's part.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby tantalum » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:32 pm

I've never said Hodgson sucks. I've said quite the opposite. I believe I said he will have a good NHL career (did I not?) Yes his defensive game will improve but how much is very much a question. And how fast it improves is another question. Yes Hodgson is only 23 but on the other hand he's already 23 and very little progress has been made in that aspect of his game. It is a major aspect that can limit his growth and importance as a player. And he does have what might be a tremendous amount of pressure coming from the other young players in the Sabres organization. I don't think it is that much of a stretch at all to suggest that he can get passed by a couple of guys. IF that happens does he start to become an afterthought in the NHL.

Kassian's defensive game is also terrible but on the other hand that isn't as important for a winger as it is a center. Center is more demanding position in that regard. I don't think there is anything around that. But yes Kassian certainly needs to step up. Again I don't believe I've said different.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby tantalum » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:39 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Well, you keep on hoping. The progression of his stats and entire body of work from Junior until now scream otherwise.


I'm not hoping for anything. I was also loose with my interpretation and response. I took for-sure prospect to mean blue chipper and probably shouldn't have. I said he'd have an NHL career but I'm not convinced that it is a career as a go to guy on a contending teams or if it is as an important player on teams that are essentially no threat. I do believe that if he struggles to hold of his competitors within the Sabres organization (and fails to control his crew) that he might begin to be shuttled down the latter route in the eyes of the NHL. If 21-22 year olds are knocking him down the depth chart when he is 25 it's sort of what can happen (not saying it will). And the same can be said for any young and promising player....including Kassian.

hell the Sabres can look at Myers to see how quickly development can just seem to plateau (or go in reverse). He too is still young but I think in his rookie season people had visions of multiple Norris trophies in his future and I'm not sure people have that view now. He certainly isn't terrible by any stretch but he is a second pairing guy right now (canucks fans can point to the plateau with Edler though not the visions of multiple Norris trophies).
Last edited by tantalum on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:49 pm

tantalum wrote:tant's post


I think what you were saying was pretty clear, but I can totally understand why you'd want to backpedal away from that position.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby tantalum » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:51 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:
tantalum wrote:tant's post


I think what you were saying was pretty clear, but I can totally understand why you'd want to backpedal away from that position.


What's to back peddle from when in my post I clearly said he'd have an NHL career? good offensive prospect/player with at this time severe defensive deficiencies.

You have your belief and I have my belief. I don't think Hodgson was going to be nay sort of difference maker based on how he was handled and the coach who handled him. So back to the topic on hand....

I don't believe the canucks will feel a huge effect due to having Luongo between the pipes. If they do then the major issues were not addressed by off season changes on the ice and behind the bench. I also think Luongo is more than capable of putting up a great season in a starters role. Overall the position is likley downgraded as we have no idea how Lack or Eriksson (sp?) will perform.

Who knows maybe in 18 months time we have another goaltending controversy and we can do this all over again!
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Potatoe1 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:17 pm

tantalum wrote: And he does have what might be a tremendous amount of pressure coming from the other young players in the Sabres organization. I don't think it is that much of a stretch at all to suggest that he can get passed by a couple of guys. IF that happens does he start to become an afterthought in the NHL.


Not quite sure what your point is here.

It doesn't matter what happens down the road for the Sabers, Hodgson is either good or he isn't and we both agree he is good. If the Sabers happen to find 2 centres who are better then Hodgson then they can and will move him somewhere else. Who cares.

A good centre will always get value back in a trade, it's a high demand position, probably the highest demand position in the league.

As for his defensive game being more of a problem because of his position, the Oilers just gave Sam Gange (a guy several here covet) a major contract and he sucks donkey balls in his own zone.

As I said, I liked the trade at the time because I like Kassian, but he needs to step it up this year. His defensive game is terrible, he doesnt bring it every night, and his ofensive game is up and down. No matter what excuses people make Cody Hodgson is a major asset in this league right now, and if our return doesn't pan out there isn't going to be any reasonable excuses for this trade.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Strangelove » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:50 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:How can you say that a PPG player with a laser-beam wrist shot couldn't have helped us?

Rumsfeld wrote:I see Topper is still bitter that a player (Hodgson) he insisted didn't have NHL-level talent is scoring at a PPG pace. :lol:

Rumsfeld wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Hodgson is outscoring them (the Sedins) a season from now.

Rumsfeld wrote:My bad on the point totals, I thought Cody had over 40 last year.


Your VERY bad considering Cody had 34 points in 48 games.

“PPG player”! Image

Over the first 24 games of last season he went on a tear with the red-hot Vanek + Pomminville

… but then slipped to his usual .55 points per game (career average).

Also Hodgson, the Jason Collins of the NHL, has just 1 assist in 12 NHL playoff games!

(for those keeping score at home)

"outscoring the Sedins a season from now"!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Strangelove » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:51 pm

ESQ wrote:I'm actually in agreement with Rummy. I don't understand how people can argue that trading Hodgson was better for the TEAM on the ice for the past season-and-a-half.


Whatever Hodgson might have brought was replaceable

(replaceable with centres on the team, or centres acquirable at the deadline with 2nd round picks/B-prospects).

Meanwhile The Kassian slowly develops...

ESQ wrote:What kills me about the argument that Hodgson would have been no good in the playoffs is that there is no evidence to support it.


No not much except for...

Evidence: Hodgson has 1 assist in 12 career NHL playoff games.

Evidence: Hodgson's production slipped in AHL playoff games.

Evidence: Our eyes tell us that when the going gets tough, Hodgson does NOT get going.

Do you have any "evidence" to the contrary? :mex:

ESQ wrote:Hodgson was the 3rd line center, he was deliberately given sheltered minutes, he played a lot on the PP and put up quite a lot of points. I would argue that the TEAM performance was better having Hodgson in that limited role than in having Kassian and Pahlsson, because scoring immediately became a problem and the powerplay suffered enormously since the trade.


Umm.

Hodgson played on the #2 PP unit.

How would him leaving contribute to the fact the #1 PP became a problem.

BTW Hodgson had ZERO power-play points in his last 17 games as a Canuck. :scowl:

Now when Daniel got injured (9 games after the trade) THAT hurt the PP

(it wasn't until Daniel returned for those last 2 playoff games that the PP returned to form).

ESQ wrote:What he provided in 6 minutes ES and 4 minutes PP is something...


Ummm wut?

ESQ wrote:In summary, 2012 Hodgson > Kassian + Pahlsson


Well your summary is wrong due to the fact your facts above are wrong.

ESQ wrote:, 2013 Hodsgon > Kassian + Roy.


Now, that's just silly....
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Strangelove » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:53 pm

$lacker wrote:By all accounts Hodgson had asked for a trade and Gillis and Co. had come up with a list of players that they would trade him for... Kassian was one of those guys and he pulled the trigger. Everything else is really irrelevant.


Yup.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Strangelove » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:57 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:Cody is probably going to hang in the 65-75 point range and will slowly improve his defensive game.


UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...

He'd hafta GET to the "65-75 point range" before he can HANG THERE. :wink:

Are you predicting 65-75 points next season for Hodgson? :mex:
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Potatoe1 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:19 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Are you predicting 65-75 points next season for Hodgson? :mex:


Hodgson scored at a 58 point clip last year. If healthy I think cracking 65 is fairly reasonable. He should move past that in healthy seasons moving forward.

Zack Kassian scored at a 23 point pace this season, I would like to think he can exceed that pace.

Both players are quite poor in their own zone. To be honest though I thought Kassian was worse last year then Cody was the year before. Kassian was our worst defensive forward by a country mile last year. I thought AV actually gave him a lot of rope.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:26 pm

Yeah, I don't think 70-75 points is unreasonable at all for Hodgson in 14/15 and I don't think a sub-70-75 point season for Hank and Danny is either.

Ooh boy, Doc would be pissing red over that one I tell ya... :mex:
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Strangelove » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:28 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:
Strangelove wrote:
Are you predicting 65-75 points next season for Hodgson? :mex:


Hodgson scored at a 58 point clip last year. If healthy I think cracking 65 is fairly reasonable.


Well he scored at a 32 point clip over the last half of last year. :hmmm:

Potatoe1 wrote:He should move past that in healthy seasons moving forward.


Right you are Potski, his bad back WILL be a problem moving forward. :wink:
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Strangelove » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:31 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Yeah, I don't think 70-75 points is unreasonable at all for Hodgson in 14/15


14/15? :lol:

Not ready to go out on a limb for Silent G in 13/14, despite all your talk, wot? :mex:
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:34 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote:Yeah, I don't think 70-75 points is unreasonable at all for Hodgson in 14/15


14/15? :lol:

Not ready to go out on a limb for Silent G in 13/14, despite all your talk, wot? :mex:


I said in a year! Never meant to suggest he would surpass them this season.
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