Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby tantalum » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:57 am

Yes Andrew Ebbett was the third line center (sometimes). He was terrible. And still better defensively than Cody Hodgson. Which is the problem with Cody Hodgson on any good team right now. It wouldn't have been tolerated by AV. It just wouldn't be. So yes perhaps more goals from the team but also a center that gets eaten alive by Darren Helm.

Also I hate the constant "he's gone so he sucks". Nowhere did I say Hodgson sucks....except at the defensive part of the game. And that he most assuredly does such at so far in his career. He has good offensive talent of that there is also no doubt. But the problem with the "he would have helped us" argument is that the aspect of the game he DOES suck at is PRECISELY the reason he wouldn't have been afforded such great opportunities to use his offense to help the team. He would have been riding the pine because a guy that can't hold his own against 3rd and 4th line centers of good teams is not going to be put on the ice by AV unless he absolutely has to do so. And even then he would try Raymond or Burrows at center first.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:12 pm

tantalum wrote:But the problem with the "he would have helped us" argument is that the aspect of the game he DOES suck at is PRECISELY the reason he wouldn't have been afforded such great opportunities to use his offense to help the team. He would have been riding the pine because a guy that can't hold his own against 3rd and 4th line centers of good teams is not going to be put on the ice by AV unless he absolutely has to do so. And even then he would try Raymond or Burrows at center first.


That is complete speculation and it's unfounded. AV gave him lots of icetime in our huge regular season game against Boston and he responded with a big goal.

When Cody played here people hacked on his defense but now you make it sound like he is the worst defensive forward in the league. Did you watch the Sedins defensively last season? They were absolutely godawful.

Cody would have gotten a regular shift in the playoffs and been used bigtime on the PP. Stop trying to rewrite history to make yourselves feel better.

And just to clarify Tant, you'd have rather had Kassian in the playoffs last year than Hodgson?
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby coco_canuck » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:50 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:But as if we couldn't have used Cody in the playoffs last year when Roy was invisible and the Canucks generated zero offense. The kid can shoot the puck, which with the exception of Kesler is a rare commodity up front for your Vancouver Canucks.

Roy was softer and less skilled than Hodgson and we gave up a good pick for him... so it's not like moving Hodgson made us bigger down the middle. So far all it's given us is a fourth liner with no defensive game to add to our offensive arsenal. :wink:


Honestly, I think you're really overrating the season Cody had and I don't see how Cody is more skilled than Roy. Cody has a better shot but that might be the only thing he's better at. Roy is faster, has better puck skills IMO, and is more effective in his own end, especially positionally.

I just don't think Cody is as good as you think he is Rummy, and this isn't me coming down on Cody because we traded him.

Rumsfeld wrote:For the record I love the player Kassian COULD turn into... but the player he is right now looks pretty awful compared to the guy we gave away for him.


He's been underwhelming for sure but I still don't think this team would be much better if we didn't have Kassian as a bottom 6 player at least and Cody as the 3rd line pivot.

It's more or less like going into the playoffs with Roy as your 3rd line C and less size in the line-up.

Since big wingers typically take time to develop there's still hope Kassian can take another step.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:00 pm

Fair enough Cokes, but I doubt you'll find a GM in this universe that would trade Hodgson for Roy.

You don't think Cody would be sitting around waiting for an offer if he were a UFA, do you?

It's not that I think Cody is this amazing player either... it's that I think he's better than what we got for him and what we've replaced him with.

Really hope Kassian is the better player one day, but even if he is, that trade set us back the last two seasons. And to say we couldn't have really used Cody and his high-end shot in the playoffs is flat-out homerism and I thought this board was better than that.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby coco_canuck » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:32 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:You don't think Cody would be sitting around waiting for an offer if he were a UFA, do you?

It's not that I think Cody is this amazing player either... it's that I think he's better than what we got for him and what we've replaced him with.


I get your gripe but Cody wouldn't be sitting around too long because he's still 23 and I don't know if he'd be getting big-time money (more than $4.5M per).

Rumsfeld wrote:Really hope Kassian is the better player one day, but even if he is, that trade set us back the last two seasons. And to say we couldn't have really used Cody and his high-end shot in the playoffs is flat-out homerism and I thought this board was better than that.


I don't agree that we couldn't have used Cody at all. I'm skeptical as to how much he would have helped us but he's not a useless player.

The reasoning behind the Cody/Kassian trade still makes a lot of sense on many levels. We'll see whether their faith in Kassian pays off. It's fair to say so far Cody has been a more productive NHL player but since they're both still young and coming off a shortened season there's a lot to learn.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby tantalum » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:49 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:That is complete speculation and it's unfounded. AV gave him lots of icetime in our huge regular season game against Boston and he responded with a big goal.


A huge regular season game against an Eastern opponent. I have a feeling it was a far bigger game in the fans minds than it was in the coaches mind.

And by the way that LOTS of ice time was 11:19. His goal was also PP so not sure how my assessment was unfounded when i believe I said that was a role he may be used in. He received less than 6:30 of even strength time and over 4 minutes PP time that game. That ES time less than everyone not named Weise and Ebbett (who got hurt early on in the game). That was pretty much the story for Hodgson. He was consistently 11th or so amongst the forwards in ES icetime during games at the end of his canuck tenure. That includes the games where he got 14-15 minutes (EVERYBODY was in those games and they were typically well in hand so AV played his less trustworthy players more). I don't find it at all likely that a guy that was being fed limited minutes compared to all but one or two 4th line forwards and given soft match ups was going to be given much of a role at all come playoff time.

When Cody played here people hacked on his defense but now you make it sound like he is the worst defensive forward in the league. Did you watch the Sedins defensively last season? They were absolutely godawful.


Cody Hodgson was abyssmal defensively. I didn't say worst defensive player but he really was not good at all.

I believe From plus/minus to possession stats the Sedins had good numbers this past season.

Cody would have gotten a regular shift in the playoffs and been used bigtime on the PP. Stop trying to rewrite history to make yourselves feel better.

And just to clarify Tant, you'd have rather had Kassian in the playoffs last year than Hodgson?


Why would Cody have received a regular shift? He was getting just over 10 minutes a game when he was traded. Guys like Darren Helm were eating him alive. Guys like Kopitar and RIchards would have been salivating at the chance to go up against him when the canucks were on the road. Whether Hodgson was moved or not they were going to acquire Pahlsson which decreases his icetime even further.

I'm not re-writing anything. AV wanted a guy like Pahlsson that year and his GM went out and got him. They played Hodgson in a position and gave him 5-on-5 minutes which were similar to what they gave Bitz, Samuelsson and Sturm (in their short tenures that year), and LaPierre. He was consistently at or next to the bottom in ES icetime for most individual games. They then acquired a guy that moves him further down the 5-on-5 depth chart. It's not revisionist history...it was a foregone conclusion. Hodgson was not going to see significant icetime in key situations in the playoffs under AV. (now this is speculation but I do believe It's likely one of the reasons he was moved when he was because decreasing icetime down the stretch and in the playoffs wouldn't do much to improve his trade value).

And yes I would want Kassian over Hodgson because I'd rather the guy they want to move forward with as an organization than the one that was always going to be behind Kesler and Sedin. Had Hodgson shown something that looked like he could supplant Kesler or Henrik in a year or two I may feel different but he didn't. He showed he has good offensive talent but was missing a lot from his game (still is) that he was always going to be at least the guy on the third rung at center. A place he doesn't want to be.

And the real comparison is Hodgson vs pahlsson or Hodgson vs Roy as those were the guys in his place in the lineup. And on both accounts yes I would have preferred the guy not named CoHo for the purposes of THIS team trying to have playoff success. If it was a first year playoff team you likely lean the other way but not with the team they had, how they were set up and who was coaching. That is still the case because Hodgson would still be the #3 guy in town....demanding a trade no doubt.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby vic » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:53 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:
You don't think Cody would be sitting around waiting for an offer if he were a UFA, do you?


Nope, but he's sitting around waiting as an RFA....

http://sabrenoise.com/2013/07/08/buffal ... y-hodgson/

The fact that the Buffalo Sabres are trying to get younger shouldn’t be lost on Hodgson – he is still a young up and coming center in the National Hockey League, but the fact that Steve Ott, Mikhail Grigorenko, Zemgus Girgensons, and Tyler Ennis have all got a shot at a center position at training camp, Hodgson could be waiting for some guarantee from the Buffalo Sabres that he has a solid standing with the team, and won’t be fighting for minutes on a team struggling to find an identity.


Yup, that's exactly the type of player the Canucks want in their organization....
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:11 pm

Tanev is also still waiting around as an RFA. Trade the cancer. :lol:

Hey tant, you can throw all the stats around you want, but remember the PP in the playoffs that couldn't score? You really think Hodgson wouldn't have played a major role on that second unit and scored a goal or made a play in those four games? The only guy on our entire forward roster who can put the puck on net from outside the circles with any velocity is Kesler. Roy was completely invisible in that series and for all his alleged skill he did nothing on the PP either.

What you guys don't seem to grasp is I'm not saying we had to keep Cody indefinitely. Especially if he wanted out. What I'm saying is that we should have gotten a more for-sure prospect or an established player for him. You guys make it sound like Kassian was the only option.

You all keep talking about Kassian improving and I'm sure he will, but Hodgson will as well. This next season will be his first full crack at the NHL in a top-six role. Given what we've seen from Kassian so far and his propensity for partying, it's straight-up Bountiful to say, right now, you'd rather have Kassian. I doubt any GM in the league makes that trade today.
Last edited by Rumsfeld on Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby BurningBeard » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:16 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Can't wait 'till Kesler gets traded, then we can all talk about how much he sucked too.

I think we've already establish Cody was a better prospect. :mrgreen:
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:19 pm

BurningBeard wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote:Can't wait 'till Kesler gets traded, then we can all talk about how much he sucked too.

I think we've already establish Cody was a better prospect. :mrgreen:


:lol:

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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby tantalum » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:22 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Tanev is also still waiting around as an RFA. Trade the cancer. :lol:


Difference is the Sabres have a history of really not liking to deal with Ritch Winter. They apparently hated Ritchie Ritch when he was Hasek's agent.

For Tanev, he to has something to prove. There is a guy named Corrado that is far more talented on the offensive side of things it seems. There are some other guys with SEL experience that I think we are going to see make a bid to be on the big club. I like Tanev but he shouldn't be feeling that safe either...especially with a new coaching staff in town. Doesn't mean he sucks or anything of the sort.

But don't discount that the Sabres organization IS heavy in center prospects and other guys who have shown the ability to play the position. I doubt one of those Ennis as they seem to like him better on the wing but that is one thing Ennis has on Hodgson...the ability to play wing. At some point Grigorenko WILL pass Hodgson IMO. Hodgson's long term future on the Sabres lies in being better that Girgensons or Larsson for the second offensive line. It likely doesn't lie in playing in the bottom 6.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby tantalum » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:26 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Tanev is also still waiting around as an RFA. Trade the cancer. :lol:

Hey tant, you can throw all the stats around you want, but remember the PP in the playoffs that couldn't score? You really think Hodgson wouldn't have played a major role on that second unit and scored a goal or made a play in those four games? The only guy on our entire forward roster who can put the puck on net from outside the circles with any velocity is Kesler. Roy was completely invisible in that series and for all his alleged skill he did nothing on the PP either.


Why would anyone think he would when two of the best PP players in the game struggled all year? Or a guy who is experienced and had some fine playoffs in Roy struggled? Seems completely presumptuous to think that the sophmore makes any sort of difference.

What you guys don't seem to grasp is I'm not saying we had to keep Cody indefinitely. Especially if he wanted out. What I'm saying is that we should have gotten a more for-sure prospect or an established player for him. You guys make it sound like Kassian was the only option.


I'm not 100% convinced he is a for sure prospect. I think he has an NHL career ahead of him but I'm not sure it's one that sees him playing important roles on contending teams at this point.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby Rumsfeld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:32 pm

tantalum wrote: Seems completely presumptuous to think that the sophmore makes any sort of difference.


For fuck's sake he could have sat in the press box and made more of a difference than Kassian.

I'm not 100% convinced he is a for sure prospect. I think he has an NHL career ahead of him but I'm not sure it's one that sees him playing important roles on contending teams at this point.


Well, you keep on hoping. The progression of his stats and entire body of work from Junior until now scream otherwise.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby ESQ » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:06 pm

I'm actually in agreement with Rummy. I don't understand how people can argue that trading Hodgson was better for the TEAM on the ice for the past season-and-a-half.

The Hodgson trade was a classic hockey trade - give up a productive player for a prospect with potential. Its a trade that would hopefully pay dividends a few years down the road, at the expense of the current roster.

When the trade happened, to me it sent the signal that Gillis was not expecting a deep run in 2012 and was re-stocking for 2013 when the injuries were all healed up. He obviously sacrificed depth on the present roster for future potential.

As bad as Hodgson is defensively, you can't possibly argue Kassian is any better. Hodgson is the better player in 2012, in 2013, and maybe not not in 2014 but we shall see.

What kills me about the argument that Hodgson would have been no good in the playoffs is that there is no evidence to support it. Hodgson was the 3rd line center, he was deliberately given sheltered minutes, he played a lot on the PP and put up quite a lot of points. I would argue that the TEAM performance was better having Hodgson in that limited role than in having Kassian and Pahlsson, because scoring immediately became a problem and the powerplay suffered enormously since the trade.

Yes, Hodgson had limited ice time due to his defensive liabilities. But he was contributing in an important way with those limited minutes. What he provided in 6 minutes ES and 4 minutes PP is something that the team needed, and was not replaced when he left.

In summary, 2012 Hodgson > Kassian + Pahlsson, 2013 Hodsgon > Kassian + Roy. Add in what was given up for Pahlsson and Roy (Ellington, Connaughton, 2 4ths and a 2nd RP) and its even worse.

However, that equation doesn't account for ridding the organization of Daddy Hodgson or Kassian's (as-yet untapped) potential. But it definitely made the present team worse.
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Re: Luongo and Schneider Revisited (or is it continued?)

Postby $lacker » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:20 pm

Gillis and AV didn't trust Hodgson to be the 3rd line player they thought they needed in the playoffs... they thought SP would be that guy and in hindsight we can say that experiment didn't work out. By all accounts Hodgson had asked for a trade and Gillis and Co. had come up with a list of players that they would trade him for... Kassian was one of those guys and he pulled the trigger. Everything else is really irrelevant.

Here's an interesting thought, would you trade Kassian back to Buff for Hodgson right now? Would Hodgson at $4.5 million (est.) for next season work on our third line? I'd personally rather have Zack at $870k with the ability to play on the top line and if not rotate through the top 9. With Buffalo's depth at Center I wouldn't be surprised if, history aside, they would trade Cody for Zack straight up. To me, it was still a good hockey trade all around with both teams benefiting.
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