MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Spock » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:42 pm

Were I Roberto Luongo, I would relish the opportunity to prove to the doubters that they were wrong. I would be back playing with a vengeance. I am certain his team mates are anxious to see how he reacts. Were I a roster player I'd be calling him and tell him how much I look forward to his return.
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one."

Spock of Vulcan
Stardate 2476.8
User avatar
Spock
CC Rookie
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:11 am
Location: Planet Vulcan, City: Reno

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Meds » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:06 pm

Strangelove wrote:Put this into google Mondi: "panic attack" + "cory schneider" ;)

Gillis just ripped off the Devils big time buddy!! :thumbs:

But seriously, there are reasons all of the major stats sites use a minimum of 200 games rather than... 75.

On sites such as these Lou is Top 5 and Schneids doesn't show up.

Schneider started in the NHL at an older age, which helps his numbers.

Also Schneider was sheltered to a large degree.

Luongo on the other hand was a 21-year-old number one on a crappy team.

The numbers you are using present a distorted view of reality.

Yes Schneids looks really good out there, but he's 27 years old and has averaged a mere 29 games per season.

And just 3 seasons.

It's madness to call him the "all-time NHL leader" in anything at this point.


No doubt, when Luongo was 27 he had already played 317 NHL games for the Panthers.

His record was less than stellar backstopping that joke of an organization, but his numbers were good. His overall totals with the cats were a 2.66 GAA, a .919 SV%, 26 SO's, and faced a whopping 9960 shots in those 5 seasons. His career SV% is better than both Patrick Roy's and Martin Brodeur's.

To even compare and project with Lou and Schneids is just retarded at this point.
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3123
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Topper » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:50 pm

Lou arrives in Vancouver and gets to the rink, he's amongst friends.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
User avatar
Topper
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4553
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Earth, most days.

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby FAN » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:07 am

ukcanuck wrote:I don't know how you figure Cory outplayed luongo
Luongo has basically turned in 30+ win seasons every year he has been here
Cory has yet to even play 30 games in a season

Umm... watch Canucks games? GAA, SV%, Win% and it's not even close? This year Schneider played more, much better numbers. Last season, Schneider played less, much better numbers (12 less games). Sure Schneider didn't play as many games, but backups don't tend to have much better numbers than starters unless the sample size is very very small.

I would say that Luongo's numbers are affected by the bad games he tends to have, but I'm not going to excuse him for his meltdowns.
FAN
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby FAN » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:11 am

I'm not too concerned about Luongo not reporting and playing badly. He isn't going to sit out and he knows that if the Canucks could have traded him they would have. The guy has too much pride and he's a potential hall of famer if he continues to put up numbers.
FAN
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:27 am

FAN wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:I don't know how you figure Cory outplayed luongo
Luongo has basically turned in 30+ win seasons every year he has been here
Cory has yet to even play 30 games in a season

Umm... watch Canucks games? GAA, SV%, Win% and it's not even close? This year Schneider played more, much better numbers. Last season, Schneider played less, much better numbers (12 less games). Sure Schneider didn't play as many games, but backups don't tend to have much better numbers than starters unless the sample size is very very small.

I would say that Luongo's numbers are affected by the bad games he tends to have, but I'm not going to excuse him for his meltdowns.


What's with condescension there bucko? Just cause you're wrong doesn't mean you gotta get flippant.
Those numbers what do they really mean anyway? Just this past season I seem to recall luongo having awesome numbers early on and people murmering that schneider wasnt responding so well to the transition to starter. Then the team folded in front of luongo and he was hung out to dry for 8 goals against Detroit. AV left him in to get lit up (probably to protect Cory's psyche) luongo's GAA went south and the next game Cory went on a bit if a roll and luongo hardly saw the net again till the playoffs where he deserved that game three start...

See, I watched the games.
User avatar
ukcanuck
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2285
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:04 am

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Hockey Widow » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:13 am

Not to mention the last game of the year, a meaningless game against Edmonton, where Luongo was left in net to get bombed. True we had some nameless walk on but what the heck, pull Luongo. You get see he was pissed. Oh wait, didn't he like drop his gear, take a shower, get dressed and leave the dressing room in like 12 minutes to go sit on the bus by himself? I'd say he was pretty pissed at how he was hung out to dry a few times.

And CS should never have gotten the net back against the SJS. He was coming off the groin injury and Luongo had played pretty good.

The only thing I would worry about is if Lack turns out to be the real deal and we get to do this all over again in 3-4 years. But then maybe thats a good thing. By then Luongo will have two Olympic gold medals, at least 2-3 Stanley Cups and the cap will be so high someone will want him. :mrgreen:

I am a huge Luongo supporter and feel a little relieved we still have him. Having said that I am a huge CS supporter and would have been fully prepared to move forward with him. NJD got the real deal in that guy and I wish him the best of luck except when he plays against one team. NJD just became my favourite team in the East.
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3499
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby FAN » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:25 am

ukcanuck wrote:
FAN wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:I don't know how you figure Cory outplayed luongo
Luongo has basically turned in 30+ win seasons every year he has been here
Cory has yet to even play 30 games in a season

Umm... watch Canucks games? GAA, SV%, Win% and it's not even close? This year Schneider played more, much better numbers. Last season, Schneider played less, much better numbers (12 less games). Sure Schneider didn't play as many games, but backups don't tend to have much better numbers than starters unless the sample size is very very small.

I would say that Luongo's numbers are affected by the bad games he tends to have, but I'm not going to excuse him for his meltdowns.


What's with condescension there bucko? Just cause you're wrong doesn't mean you gotta get flippant.
Those numbers what do they really mean anyway? Just this past season I seem to recall luongo having awesome numbers early on and people murmering that schneider wasnt responding so well to the transition to starter. Then the team folded in front of luongo and he was hung out to dry for 8 goals against Detroit. AV left him in to get lit up (probably to protect Cory's psyche) luongo's GAA went south and the next game Cory went on a bit if a roll and luongo hardly saw the net again till the playoffs where he deserved that game three start...

See, I watched the games.


Lol. What the fuck are you talking about? You're one sensitive dude if you think that was condescension. I thought it's pretty easy to see why someone would think that Schneider outplayed Luongo even if you don't agree with it.

What do those numbers mean? GAA = Goals Against Average, SV% = Save Percentage, Win% = Percentage of games starts that results in a Win vs a Loss (something like that). GAA, SV%, and Wins (or Win%) are commonly used to evaluate a goaltender's effectiveness and ability. ; :lol: I'll let someone else explain more about what those numbers mean if you don't get it.
FAN
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Nuckertuzzi » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:12 am

ukcanuck wrote:Luongo has won 6 playoff series for the Canucks as starter
Cory is 1-5 in playoff starts



Luongo is also 0-6 in his last 6 playoff starts.

You're talking about Cory's first ever playoff starts. Lu's came with a shitload of experience. Not to mention with 2 opportunities to win a Cup and at a start of a couple of 0-0 series openers. Cory's starts? His first ever comes after Lu blows 2 games hideously following a 3-0 series lead, in a loud hostile Chicago building..about the most intense pressure anyone can imagine. His other 5 starts come in similarly desperate situations when the team was down 0-2 in two series, one of which he was thrust in straight off an injury.

Are we seriously going to judge his playoff performance under those circumstances??
Nuckertuzzi
CC Veteran
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:52 pm

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby darren » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:56 am

It's reasonable to have a debate on who the better goalie has been/will be. There are arguments for both sides. Lou has been (and likely will continue to be) very, very good. If he can win a cup and keep it up for a few more years his career numbers might get into Brodeur territory and we might be talking HoF. CS has been very, very promising and I have every belief that NJ just locked up their starter for the next 10 years. (if they can afford him in two years ... maybe we'll get him back :lol: ).

You could argue that CS will be better going forward, but there's no way you could argue he'll be head and shoulders better. Definitely not "Bo Horvat and 27m better". (Sure CS has a lower cap hit and salary for now, but I bet you he won't in two years! :o )

I'm very happy to have Lou back. Lou is not "the problem" and never was.
User avatar
darren
CC Veteran
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:45 am

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby Topper » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:04 am

Every incidence of Lou being bombed, there may have been one or two he should have had, but the bulk of the performance was poor play in front of him. Game 6 Boston, Kesler couldn't back check if his life depended upon it and was the goat on at least two (yes I know he was injured). It is the same for nearly every 7uon8o performance.

Thing is, Lou gets one or two past him because of poor play in front of him and he doesn't pull a rabbit out of his hat and stop the carnage. Instead he collapses.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
User avatar
Topper
CC Legend
 
Posts: 4553
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Earth, most days.

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby dbr » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:22 am

FAN wrote:Umm... watch Canucks games? GAA, SV%, Win% and it's not even close? This year Schneider played more, much better numbers. Last season, Schneider played less, much better numbers (12 less games). Sure Schneider didn't play as many games, but backups don't tend to have much better numbers than starters unless the sample size is very very small.

I would say that Luongo's numbers are affected by the bad games he tends to have, but I'm not going to excuse him for his meltdowns.


Yeah but if you take away Cory's five shutouts his stats are terrible. :lol:

In seriousness I don't think Luongo's "meltdowns" this past season were games where he should wear the goat horns. Topper put it better (and briefer) already but now I've gone and pulled up Excel so you'll just have to put up with some light number crunching.

In this specific season the entire team was brutal in the 8-3 loss to the Red Wings and the Edmonton loss was him playing behind an AHL lineup (no first line, Ballard/Barker/Corrado/Alberts/Joslin combined for about 100 minutes, Lapierre on for 18 minutes, Ebbett for 17, etc).

If you take out each players worst two starts their stat lines are

Luongo 16 GS, 9-4-3 (.656%), 2.01 GA/60, 0.925 SV%, 2 SO
Schneider 28 GS, 17-7-4 (.678%), 1.86 GA/60, 0.935 SV%, 5 SO

The other thing is that their roles were clearly different last year, twice Luongo went in when Schneider had a bad start and while better than Cory statistically in the game, still took a hit on his own numbers; when Luongo had a bad start he was left in for the full 60.

Take out Roberto's relief appearances and there is even less to separate the two: 1.94 GA/60, 0.929 SV%.

Anyway this is all nearly completely pointless since the sample size for each goaltender - but particularly for Luongo - is miniscule. But my point is that if you're willing to engage in the same kind of mental mathematics to Luongo's credit that you were willing to use to discredit Tortorella, his numbers aren't bad at all.

Topper wrote:Every incidence of Lou being bombed, there may have been one or two he should have had, but the bulk of the performance was poor play in front of him. Game 6 Boston, Kesler couldn't back check if his life depended upon it and was the goat on at least two (yes I know he was injured). It is the same for nearly every 7uon8o performance.

Thing is, Lou gets one or two past him because of poor play in front of him and he doesn't pull a rabbit out of his hat and stop the carnage. Instead he collapses.


He's like the anti-Fuhr. Hopefully the coaching staff recognizes that he isn't going to be singlehandedly winning games and has the team playing the right way to complement his still considerable talent.
dbr
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2478
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:37 pm

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:29 am

FAN wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:
FAN wrote:Umm... watch Canucks games? GAA, SV%, Win% and it's not even close? This year Schneider played more, much better numbers. Last season, Schneider played less, much better numbers (12 less games). Sure Schneider didn't play as many games, but backups don't tend to have much better numbers than starters unless the sample size is very very small.

I would say that Luongo's numbers are affected by the bad games he tends to have, but I'm not going to excuse him for his meltdowns.


What's with condescension there bucko? Just cause you're wrong doesn't mean you gotta get flippant.
Those numbers what do they really mean anyway? Just this past season I seem to recall luongo having awesome numbers early on and people murmering that schneider wasnt responding so well to the transition to starter. Then the team folded in front of luongo and he was hung out to dry for 8 goals against Detroit. AV left him in to get lit up (probably to protect Cory's psyche) luongo's GAA went south and the next game Cory went on a bit if a roll and luongo hardly saw the net again till the playoffs where he deserved that game three start...

See, I watched the games.


Lol. What the fuck are you talking about? You're one sensitive dude if you think that was condescension. I thought it's pretty easy to see why someone would think that Schneider outplayed Luongo even if you don't agree with it.

What do those numbers mean? GAA = Goals Against Average, SV% = Save Percentage, Win% = Percentage of games starts that results in a Win vs a Loss (something like that). GAA, SV%, and Wins (or Win%) are commonly used to evaluate a goaltender's effectiveness and ability. ; :lol: I'll let someone else explain more about what those numbers mean if you don't get it.

clearly your sarcameter is broken...we have a doc can fix that for you :)
User avatar
ukcanuck
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2285
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:04 am

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby ukcanuck » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:47 am

Topper wrote:Every incidence of Lou being bombed, there may have been one or two he should have had, but the bulk of the performance was poor play in front of him. Game 6 Boston, Kesler couldn't back check if his life depended upon it and was the goat on at least two (yes I know he was injured). It is the same for nearly every 7uon8o performance.

Thing is, Lou gets one or two past him because of poor play in front of him and he doesn't pull a rabbit out of his hat and stop the carnage. Instead he collapses.


I guess the hope is that that tendency has changed.

My impression has always been that in addition to being an emotional Italian, Luo is a bit of a primadonna. The golden boy who was used to being the centre of attention and the go to guy and maybe quit when he wasn't getting supported by his players in front of him.

However, this recent experience of being usurped by Schneider and rejected by the entire league twice ought to have poked a huge hole in that self narrative he came with from Florida.

Toss in the public perception change from the Boston series to the image of him riding that golf cart on that TSN commercial and maybe humility will be his new calling card.
User avatar
ukcanuck
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2285
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:04 am

Re: MacKenzie: Corey Schneider to NJ for 9th overall pick

Postby ORCA » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:57 am

Hockey Widow wrote:The only thing I would worry about is if Lack turns out to be the real deal and we get to do this all over again in 3-4 years.


^This.

This is precisely the reason for this trade that people have dodged over and over again.

There are goalies all over the league who's cap hit is equal or greater than Luongo. Christ, Bobrovski just signed a 2 year extension at 5.625M per. The cap hit is a temporary concern right now (like it was last time) because of the 1-2 year squeeze under the new CBA. Nobody wants to stomach the ~6.8M in Salary that Luongo gets until 2017-18 for a 5.3M cap hit, because it doesn't even out on the ice (unless he goes turbo and has consecutive career seasons).

In 3-4 years, this won't happen again, because the cap will be significantly higher than it was last year. It won't happen because Luongo will still be fit as a fiddle, and he will still be a top goaltender in the league. Dominant? Maybe not, but I'd bet more teams would have him than would not. Ironically, Vancouver will get more for him at 37-38 than they would have (even in a real goalie market) this year. Poor teams (cap floor challenged) will gladly soak up that cap hit for a discounted salary post 2018. Furthermore, if Vancouver decided to unload Luongo a couple seasons before his salary heavy years were over, they could always stipulate that they'd pay the difference (1.6M or whatever) in salary until the Cap and Salary obligation were equal.

What a weird world hockey is... Among the myriad conversation possibilities, we are having this one. And to think, depending on who you listened to, there was serious discussion years ago after missing the playoffs that we might send Luongo to Tampa Bay in 2008 for their #1 pick...

I wonder what we'll be talking about in 4 more years :)
~Your Friendly Neighborhood Killer Whale
User avatar
ORCA
CC Veteran
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:12 pm
Location: Right Behind You

PreviousNext

Return to Canucks Corner Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests