Coaches canned

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Re: Coaches canned

Postby tantalum » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:46 am

ukcanuck wrote:Does it make anyone else nervous that the coach we canned got rehired immediately and seemingly had his pick of jobs too?

Not that I think Gillis should be the guy to walk the plank exactly but wonder if/ when gillis is shitcanned will he land on his feet so seemlessly?


Why would it be surprising? AV IS a good coach. His record speaks to that. He has over 400 wins as a head coach and onyl one losing season. Of course he was going to be snapped up quickly.
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby herb » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:51 am

AV is an excellent head coach, but had clearly grown old and tired with this particular group of players. He wouldn’t have lasted this long if he wasn’t an excellent coach.
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby coco_canuck » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:54 am

I didn't post much this past season but here are my thoughts on what went wrong in the playoffs:

-Kesler wasn't the same two-way force. An incredible effort in game 2 aside, Kesler simply had not played enough hockey over the past calendar year to get his game to where it used to be. Offensively he actually was decent, but his dominant two-way player was nowhere near where it needed to be.

-Weak second line wingers. With Booth out, the Canucks rotated Kassian, Higgins, Hansen and Raymond through the 2nd line to little success. Higgins and Hansen are very solid top 9 wingers but they're not 2nd line mainstays. They can fill in admirably in the top 6, but they can't excel unless a bonafide 2nd line winger is already on that line.

-A weak as shit 4th line.

-Head scratching D-pairs. Why the fuck were Edler and Bieksa paired together for such long stretches, and why were they 1-2 in ice time on the team? Hamhuis and Garrison had been our most consistent Ds all season, and were the two best defensemen the team had vs San Jose.

-Starting Schneider in game 3 was a big mistake when Luo had been playing well and 35 was sitting out with a groin injury, and that decision blew up in AV's face.

-The Canucks took a more defensive posture vs San Jose when they simply didn't have the forwards to play that style, not with Kesler missing his two-way game and Roy shifting between the 2nd-3rd line, all the while we had an inept 4th line that got crushed in its match-ups. I was cringing before the playoffs when the Canucks were talking about how they thought their defensive approach would be lead to more success this post-season. We simply weren't built to play that style.


So the decision this off-season is whether to bring this team back to being a two-way force like in 2011, which means adding more skill and another two-way centre, or they have to go to a more grinding style with big wingers and solid checkers in the bottom 6.
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby Reefer2 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:54 am

ukcanuck wrote:Does it make anyone else nervous that the coach we canned got rehired immediately and seemingly had his pick of jobs too?

Not that I think Gillis should be the guy to walk the plank exactly but wonder if/ when gillis is shitcanned will he land on his feet so seemlessly?


not at all, AV is a good coach but has gone stale in Vancouver. MG is MG, he does things in his own way and now 2 weeks away from FA I don't expect to see any bold moves. I expect RL to be traded but that is it. The core is the core and will remain once the season starts.

The question is if Torts is hired will he kick drive the country club boys into playing hockey and hold bad plays accountable. I cant wait to see if he sits Edler after one of his standard fire drills in his own end.

Bieksa must be having nightmares with Torts, someone to hold him accountable too.

The core on this team has 3 years left so after that a new coach can be hired to bring in to coach a new team.
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby Lancer » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:08 am

ukcanuck wrote:Does it make anyone else nervous that the coach we canned got rehired immediately and seemingly had his pick of jobs too?

Not that I think Gillis should be the guy to walk the plank exactly but wonder if/ when gillis is shitcanned will he land on his feet so seemlessly?


That fact doesn't really make me nervous, and doesn't surprise me either. Vigneault is a very good coach whose resume is probably the best among who was available (SC championships notwithstanding).

He just got stale in Vancouver and ran out of ideas with that group. It happens to the best of them. Vigneault had his pact with the leadership in the room, and either wouldn't or couldn't change that in order to snap them out of their funk. His tactics got old and he didn't have any new innovations.

No doubt he will do well in New York but that doesn't mean he would do as good in Vancouver or any better than before even if Gillis traded the Twins. He was set in his ways and needed a change of scenery, much like (I would argue) some of the core.

I see the necessary fix as two-part: fix the coaching and fix the core. You can't do one without the other. We'll see if, as I hope, Gillis does both.

As for Gillis' chances at future employment if he gets shitcanned, I don't see much prospect - if only for the reason that GMs don't get shitcanned nearly as often as coaches, and the old-boys club permeates that level much more regardless of competence. Having said that, Gillis managed to get himself hired without the benefit of the old-boys network so you never know.
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby ukcanuck » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:12 am

I think the point I'm trying to make is that the fact that AV landed on his feet with a nice 5 year contract might prove that the "mistakes" that he was being blamed for here by some might just be overblown a little.

Perhaps and I am being devils advocate here to some degree, When its Gillis' turn to walk the plank, there won't be a line up of teams looking to grab what were so quick to let go...
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby coco_canuck » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:22 am

ukcanuck wrote:Perhaps and I am being devils advocate here to some degree, When its Gillis' turn to walk the plank, there won't be a line up of teams looking to grab what were so quick to let go...


Well, coaches are recycled a lot more frequently than GMs.

AV is a very good coach, one I've defended quite a bit but what this post-season showed is that he lost his handle on putting his team in the best position to win, and his coaching moves didn't pay off.

He failed to effectively match-up his lines vs the Sharks, whereas McLellan did an excellent job exploiting match-ups, especially in San Jose.

The line combinations, D-pairs and decisions on the starting goalie really blew up in his face vs San Jose. It was eerily similar to last year's series vs the Kings where almost every decision AV made was the wrong one.

These things can happen with coaches after a while. It's not really an indictment on AV's failures perse, but a product of the reality that AV seemed to have lost his touch with this team, at least when it came to playoff game plans and strategy execution.
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby ukcanuck » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:46 am

coco_canuck wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:Perhaps and I am being devils advocate here to some degree, When its Gillis' turn to walk the plank, there won't be a line up of teams looking to grab what were so quick to let go...


Well, coaches are recycled a lot more frequently than GMs.

AV is a very good coach, one I've defended quite a bit but what this post-season showed is that he lost his handle on putting his team in the best position to win, and his coaching moves didn't pay off.

He failed to effectively match-up his lines vs the Sharks, whereas McLellan did an excellent job exploiting match-ups, especially in San Jose.

The line combinations, D-pairs and decisions on the starting goalie really blew up in his face vs San Jose. It was eerily similar to last year's series vs the Kings where almost every decision AV made was the wrong one.

These things can happen with coaches after a while. It's not really an indictment on AV's failures perse, but a product of the reality that AV seemed to have lost his touch with this team, at least when it came to playoff game plans and strategy execution.

The only real complaint I have about AV is that he is too much a technical coach and not enough an emotional coach.
I think he works hard behind the scenes to give the team every edge he can and I think he expects players to bring that work ethic too and has little time for immature players whi dont (like O'Brian for example,) however, the stories of him leaving the rah rah stuff to the leadership in the dressing room is what I think is what is not working here.
First off if you leave the players to work out the dynamics in the room you invite cliques, and at the end of the day, hockey is an emotional game and these are young dudes for the most part. I think on this team AV was done and ironically enough, I think with all the veterans on the rangers, I think his style will do well there.
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby herb » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:50 am

At the end of the day for me, AV’s downfall was his overreliance on his veteran players and on what had worked in the past. For the past two years, he wasn’t able to adapt to how the team personnel had changed since 2011.

When it became obvious that certain aspects of the team’s game were not producing as expected, like on the PP, he always went back to what worked n 2011; the twins with Kesler and Edler.

AV relied heavily on Kevin Bieksa as one of his trusted old veterans, who has struggled when not with a consistent partner. On the other hand, newcomer Jason Garrison seemed to take forever to get in the coaching staff’s good graces, despite being our most consistent two-way defenseman.

I was really not happy with AV dumping Kassian off the twins line, when they looked so good early on in the season. It was clear as day this team needed a new look up front, and that Kassian was the guy management was hoping would be able to provide that spark, but as soon as that line struggled AV went back to the twins with Burrows and never looked back even when those three struggled.
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby ukcanuck » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:06 pm

Yeah there is that tendency to fall back on what you know, but I wasn't too bothered by that so much. It's a byproduct of the win now mentality. Vancouver as a market has had no sympathy for losing and a smart coach isn't going to play around with uncertainty if he wants to stick around.
It'll be interesting how patient the faithful are going to be going forward. Will we call for blood right off the bat or will it take a three game losing streak...
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby herb » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:36 pm

ukcanuck wrote:Yeah there is that tendency to fall back on what you know, but I wasn't too bothered by that so much. It's a byproduct of the win now mentality. Vancouver as a market has had no sympathy for losing and a smart coach isn't going to play around with uncertainty if he wants to stick around.


I get that, and I’m sure the shortened season played a role as well, but I think this core group can benefit greatly from some different looks and a few new personnel up front. I was hopeful Kassian could provide more of that this year, and he did look promising early on.

Personally, I think Kassian is huge in any medium term future this organization has. If he is a flop, that leaves a big hole in our forward depth going forward and means we have to continue to rely too much on the ageing Sedins and Burrows as well as an injury prone Kesler.

Kassian absolutely needs to be a top six player because there isn’t much else coming down the pipeline in the next two to three years outside of Jensen and Gaunce. I think it should have been a priority to get Kassian going at all costs, even if it meant moving Burrows down a line, especially given the success Zach had early on with the twins. I think the coaches could have done more to help enable more success, which is a top priority on their job descriptions.
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby Arachnid » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:47 pm

ukcanuck wrote:I think the point I'm trying to make is that the fact that AV landed on his feet with a nice 5 year contract might prove that the "mistakes" that he was being blamed for here by some might just be overblown a little.

Perhaps and I am being devils advocate here to some degree, When its Gillis' turn to walk the plank, there won't be a line up of teams looking to grab what were so quick to let go...


Well that's just poppycock :P

How can you say this if AV/NYR hasn't had time to prove themselves? Or MG hiring a coach of his choosing?

It's just pure speculation and expected from someone selling junk bonds ilk not your status :D
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby ukcanuck » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:33 pm

herb wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:Yeah there is that tendency to fall back on what you know, but I wasn't too bothered by that so much. It's a byproduct of the win now mentality. Vancouver as a market has had no sympathy for losing and a smart coach isn't going to play around with uncertainty if he wants to stick around.


I get that, and I’m sure the shortened season played a role as well, but I think this core group can benefit greatly from some different looks and a few new personnel up front. I was hopeful Kassian could provide more of that this year, and he did look promising early on.

Personally, I think Kassian is huge in any medium term future this organization has. If he is a flop, that leaves a big hole in our forward depth going forward and means we have to continue to rely too much on the ageing Sedins and Burrows as well as an injury prone Kesler.

Kassian absolutely needs to be a top six player because there isn’t much else coming down the pipeline in the next two to three years outside of Jensen and Gaunce. I think it should have been a priority to get Kassian going at all costs, even if it meant moving Burrows down a line, especially given the success Zach had early on with the twins. I think the coaches could have done more to help enable more success, which is a top priority on their job descriptions.



I completely agree with you on kassian, and I think Gillis knows it too, it's probably the difference between they way the team reacted to OB being In the bar too much compared to kassian. Additionally, I think it might come out eventually that it was the reason that they pulled him off the first line too. why put too much pressure on him now when we werent going to truly contend anyway. Let him grow into that player he is teasing us to be, without letting him feel like he has to carry the team with the Sedins.

This coming season with a couple more kids through out the line up and a coach that doesn't leave the locker room to a clique of senior players he should have a great opportunity to really grow into the new generation of the Canucks
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby ukcanuck » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:34 pm

Arachnid wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:I think the point I'm trying to make is that the fact that AV landed on his feet with a nice 5 year contract might prove that the "mistakes" that he was being blamed for here by some might just be overblown a little.

Perhaps and I am being devils advocate here to some degree, When its Gillis' turn to walk the plank, there won't be a line up of teams looking to grab what were so quick to let go...


Well that's just poppycock :P

How can you say this if AV/NYR hasn't had time to prove themselves? Or MG hiring a coach of his choosing?

It's just pure speculation and expected from someone selling junk bonds ilk not your status :D

Yeah I thought I give this a try, see how it works...
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Re: Coaches canned

Postby Arachnid » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:50 pm

ukcanuck wrote:
Arachnid wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:I think the point I'm trying to make is that the fact that AV landed on his feet with a nice 5 year contract might prove that the "mistakes" that he was being blamed for here by some might just be overblown a little.

Perhaps and I am being devils advocate here to some degree, When its Gillis' turn to walk the plank, there won't be a line up of teams looking to grab what were so quick to let go...


Well that's just poppycock :P

How can you say this if AV/NYR hasn't had time to prove themselves? Or MG hiring a coach of his choosing?

It's just pure speculation and expected from someone selling junk bonds ilk not your status :D

Yeah I thought I give this a try, see how it works...


Thanks RDCanuck! :D
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