ESQ wrote: Strangelove wrote:
ESQ wrote:As I pointed out after the 2011 loss, there have only been 2 Champs since 2000 who won on measurable toughness
Oh you "pointed it out" did you... won that debate did you?
Ya I think I won it...nobody bothered to challenge it in a debate with, y'know, actual facts, and I see you're not up to the challenge either
*looks at audience
He don't know me too well do he?
Firstly, allow yours truly to point out that your Vancouver Canucks had more PIM/G than your Boston Bruins in the 2011 playoffs (ergo: the PIM stat proves nothing in regards to post-season toughness, as stated THE POINT
is that the refs tend to put the whistles away at a certain point).
Secondly, please note your Big Bad Boston Bruins presently sit at 8th in your 2013 playoffs PIM/G stat, your Vancouver Canucks are 4th (ergo: obviously Gallagher and yours truly are not talking about PIM numbers, rather just the opposite, we are talking about refs NOT calling all the penalties they arguably should
on “bully” teams. I would also point out that, going by your posts in this thread, you seem to agree with that assessment…. so ummm WHY are you still talking about PIMs?)
Thirdly, you seem to be conceding that 3 of the last 7 Stanley Cup Champion teams were throwbacks to the 70s nasty brand of physical hockey. Ducks, Bruins, and Kings (I include your LA Kings because you stated “if we have a Kings-Bruins finals, we will be back in the 70s”). BTW there is presently an approximate 50% a team EXACTLY like your Bruins/Kings wins the Cup this year, meaning 4 of the last 8 Stanley Cup Champion teams would be what you seem to refer to… if I may be so bold… as “goon squads”?
Fourthly, what, may I ask, is your problem with 70s hockey?
Fifthly, let’s keep in mind you are not going to win the Cup unless you outscore the opposition, so quoting goal-scoring stats is much too simplistic (even your nasty Cup-winning Ducks, Bruins, and Kings were among the top teams in GPG). No, obviously what we are endeavoring to do is look deeper, beyond the stats if you will (will stats ever prove whether or not the refs have put the whistle away at a certain point in time?). Listen ESQ, the nerdification of a blood sport like hockey is only going to take you so far. And make no mistake: One knows one has gone full nerd when one finds oneself trying to use stats to argue a position like “Toughness is NOT a major factor in winning your Stanley Cup.”
Sixthly, we’re starting in 2001 (rather than sooner) because presumably it helps your argument.
Okay, with all that in mind, let us begin, shall we?
2001 Colorado – has there ever been a top 4 tougher than Blake, Bourque, Foote, and Klem? Or bottom 6ers tougher than Nieminen, Yelle, Hinote, Dingman, and Parker (okay, Parker hardly played but still he was available if teams wanted to play them that way). Their 2 top forwards Sakic and Forsberg are legendary for going into beast-mode come playoff time (no backing down from physical play, just the opposite in fact). Yes they had some pussies in their top-6, but like I say, you need a good blend of fancy boys and assholes (the fancy boys on that team felt protected and Sakic + Forsberg took no shit from no one).
2002 Detroit – Top 9 included nasty SOBs Shanahan, Holmstrom, McCarty, Draper, and Maltby. And no one will ever call fellow top-9 star forwards Yzerman, Hull, or Fedorov pussies. Yep, 8 of their top 9 forwards were some of the toughest-to-play-against forwards in playoff history! 2 of their top 4 dee were Chelios and Fischer, who just happened to 2 of the meanest nastiest dirtiest dee in the league that year. Obviously fellow top-4 dee Lidstrom was squeaky clean, but nobody ever intimidated Nicklas Lidstrom amirite? And intimidation or lack thereof is at least part of what we’re talking about, no?
2003 NJ – Top 4 included beasts Scott Stevens and Colin White and fancy-boy playoff legend Scott Niedermayer. Gritty forwards Madden, Langenbrunner, and Jeff Friesen were 1, 2, and 3 in scoring and +/- that playoff year (so not sure how you can argue it was skill over brawn for that team that year). And assholes Turner Stevenson, Jim McKenzie, and Mike Rupp were available for 4th line duty. But seriously. Legendary asshole Scott Stevens averaged 25 minutes per game = say no more.
2004 TB – Top 4 were Kubina and Sarich (hard to believe but they were both physical beasts that year) plus the physical J.C. Cullimore and never-been-intimidated fancy-boy Dan Boyle. That’s TOUGH and balanced. Hard hitting big bodies in Lecavalier, Andreychuk, Fedotenko and Modin plus small-yet fearless Richards and St Louis made for an awesome top 6. Fearsome policemen Chris Dingman and Andre Roy patrolling the 4th line….
2005 – LOCKOUT
2006 Car – Monsters Staal, Brindamour, Ladd… plus not-huge-yet-physical Recchi and Weight in their top 9. And on dee… hmmm… yeah, y’know what… I’m gonna give you that one lol.
2007 Ducks – You agreed with me.
2008 Wings – They had, scattered throughout their lineup, forwards who seemed thrive on physical play AT THE TIME in Franzen, Cleary, Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Draper, McCarty, Draper, and Maltby. Nice blend of physical dee in Kronwall (who also led the dee in scoring), Stuart, Chelios, and Lilja... along with fancy-boy scoring stars Lidstrom and Rafalski. Physical team!
2009 Penguins – Top 9 had major physical forces Staal, Guerin, Kunitz, Cooke, and Fedotenko. Nice blend with superstars you-know-who and you-know-who at the top of their respective games. Orpik went into absolute beast-mode that year and, along with the giant Hal Gill and fancy-boy stars Gonchar and Letang, made a for a well-balanced top 4.
2010 Blackhawks – Are you kidding here? Ummm BYFUGLIEN gone wild, Seabrook + Keith at the top of their game, Sopel transformed (somehow) into a shutdown machine… killing penalties with aplomb along with Niklas Where The Hell Did He Come From Hjalmarsson? Physical forwards on every line including Toews, Hossa (underrated in that department), Sharp, Ladd, Madden, Brouwer, Kopecky, Eager, Burish? ALL physical players (with Bickel and Fraser in reserve). The Blackhawks POWERED their way to the Stanley Cup.
2011 Bruins – You agreed with me.
2012 Kings - You agreed with me (I think).
Remember, yours truly never said you had to have THE most physical team in the league to win the Cup.
Yours truly merely stated your Vancouver Canucks are sorely lacking in that department.
Oh, and WHEN your Boston Bruins win your Stanley Cup again this year, that will make SEVEN
… (7) straight years a team much more physical than your Vancouver Canucks has won your Stanley Cup.
And so... in closing... my dear ESQ, let me just say: Welcome to the 70s.