CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybody?)

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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby tantalum » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:08 am

Rummy.....for the record the "woosh" was intended for an e-mail I was writing at the time, not to you. I got confuddled on where I was typing, what I was typing, who I was responding to etc and never proof-read the post. In 15 years I haven't gone over a post before hitting submit and I won't start now!
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby Tciso » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:15 am

Rumsfeld wrote:Nobody would be criticizing the Sedins if they had one "tough series".

They've had five "tough series" out of their last six. Sure, more scoring depth would be nice, but good playoff players will perform well whether there's a stacked second line or not. The Sedins were basically ineffective three out of four series when we had the highest scoring team in the NHL.

Make all the excuses for them you want, the Sedins are terrible in the playoffs and the entire league knows it.


What do you base that on? their ppg in the playoffs? I hope not, as almost every player sees a drop in ppg in the playoffs. Except the 3rd or 4th liner who has the best 10 games of his career on a cup run. But, the big dogs almost always drop in ppg.
The twins have always been quiet players. even nights that they get 3 points, they often seem to be not dominating.
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby Rumsfeld » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:16 am

LOL, not a problem tant.

It all comes down to this... I'm not satisfied with the Sedins' performance in the playoffs the last three years. Some people are, fair enough.

Their game is IMO just not suited to the playoffs and it's been frustrating to watch... it takes more than the odd assist to be considered a playoff performer. I'm not convinced that a stacked second line is going to suddenly make them better. And when you're taking up 12 million in cap space a stacked second line is probably a bit of a pipe dream anyway.

I do think splitting them up this season and getting some size and grit on their wings is a good idea.
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby Rumsfeld » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:21 am

Tciso wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote:Nobody would be criticizing the Sedins if they had one "tough series".

They've had five "tough series" out of their last six. Sure, more scoring depth would be nice, but good playoff players will perform well whether there's a stacked second line or not. The Sedins were basically ineffective three out of four series when we had the highest scoring team in the NHL.

Make all the excuses for them you want, the Sedins are terrible in the playoffs and the entire league knows it.


What do you base that on? their ppg in the playoffs? I hope not, as almost every player sees a drop in ppg in the playoffs. Except the 3rd or 4th liner who has the best 10 games of his career on a cup run. But, the big dogs almost always drop in ppg.
The twins have always been quiet players. even nights that they get 3 points, they often seem to be not dominating.


The twins used to dominate teams on a regular basis in their own end, wearing them down with the cycle game. Now they spend more time chasing the puck than they do possessing it.

In the playoffs this is magnified because of the extra hustle and physicality of the play. It seems like everyone else amps their game up in the postseason while the twin stay at the same level. I just want to see some intensity and some push-back once in a while, and I don't think that's too much to ask if you want to be considered an effective playoff performer.
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby Tciso » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:27 am

Rumsfeld wrote:
Tciso wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote:Nobody would be criticizing the Sedins if they had one "tough series".

They've had five "tough series" out of their last six. Sure, more scoring depth would be nice, but good playoff players will perform well whether there's a stacked second line or not. The Sedins were basically ineffective three out of four series when we had the highest scoring team in the NHL.

Make all the excuses for them you want, the Sedins are terrible in the playoffs and the entire league knows it.


What do you base that on? their ppg in the playoffs? I hope not, as almost every player sees a drop in ppg in the playoffs. Except the 3rd or 4th liner who has the best 10 games of his career on a cup run. But, the big dogs almost always drop in ppg.
The twins have always been quiet players. even nights that they get 3 points, they often seem to be not dominating.


The twins used to dominate teams on a regular basis in their own end, wearing them down with the cycle game. Now they spend more time chasing the puck than they do possessing it.

In the playoffs this is magnified because of the extra hustle and physicality of the play. It seems like everyone else amps their game up in the postseason while the twin stay at the same level. I just want to see some intensity and some push-back once in a while, and I don't think that's too much to ask if you want to be considered an effective playoff performer.


I blame AV for a lot of that. During the regular season, teams see us occasionally, and their style works great. During the payoffs, teams prepare specifically to defend their style, and get a lot of practice at it over 4 to 7 games. AV never adjusted our style, and as a result, was out-coached on pretty much every series we lost. He was out-coached on some of the ones we won too.
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby tantalum » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:30 am

Rumsfeld wrote:Nobody would be criticizing the Sedins if they had one "tough series".

They've had five "tough series" out of their last six. Sure, more scoring depth would be nice, but good playoff players will perform well whether there's a stacked second line or not. The Sedins were basically ineffective three out of four series when we had the highest scoring team in the NHL.


Huh? The San Jose series sure...yet the line still led the team in offense.

The Kings series...Henrik was the ONLY offense. Daniel was concussed.

Boston series...yep tough series. Chara is a beast as Crosby and Malkin are finding out.

San Jose series...Henrik was dominant. Daniel less so but still led the offense with Henrik.

Nashville series... Henrik could barely skate...yet he had a 3 point game and was a major reason for that win.

Chicago series...Look at the numbers. They led the team in offense. Daniel had 5 goals in that series. Should he have scored at a 90 goal pace instead of 60?

The fact of the matter is, with the exception of the Nashville series where Kesler actually did something offensively, if they aren't far and away the BULK of the offense the team loses. Hell they can be the bulk of the offense and still lose, because with such a soft offense behind them it allows a team to focus. The anomally isn't the Sedins effort or points in a series or two, the anomally is that in the Nashville series someone actually stepped up to the plate.

So by your logic the Sedins can suck forever in the playoffs but that's OK because once in a while other top players get shut down as well and we can always just blame it on depth. :lol: Make all the excuses for them you want, the Sedins are terrible in the playoffs and the entire league knows it. At least when other top players aren't scoring they're contributing in other ways.


Has nothing to do with logic. It has to do with fact. During the cup run:

first round 7 games: Henrik 5 points, Daniel 7 points. Good production.
second round 5 games: Henrik 4 points, Daniel 3 points. Not great production
third round 5 games: Henrik 12 points Daniel 6 points. Excellent and good production
fourth round 7 games: Henrik 1 point, Daniel 4 points. Not as expected to be sure and it was a bad series. No doubt especially for Henrik.

Kings series: Henrik 5 points (in 5 games), Daniel 2 points (in 2 games). neither one was even remotely an issue.

Sharks series (4 games): 3 points a piece. 5-on-5 play was good. Special teams all around sucked and they don't play the PK which was a huge issue (again).

those aren't the numbers of terrible playoff performers. Those are the numbers of good players with consistent production. Just because they don't hit doesn't mean they don't bring something to the table when they aren't scoring. They bring tremendous puck possession and do wear guys down. There is just very little behind them to capitalize on the work they do. again not saying they haven't had some tough times but it certainly isn't unusual. hell are we not witnessing the last few years with Toews and Kane? hell Krejci doesn't hit yet leads the NHl in playoff scoring. why? because of Lucic and Horton giving him room. For goodness sakes the Kings leading playoff scorer this year is Jeff Carter....who is on a sizzling 55 point pace. Kopitar has a mere 2 goals and 7 points in 16 games. What's the difference between teams like the Kings/hawks and canucks? It's not star players exceeding expectations (most are not even close to meeting those expectations this playoff year btw) but rather those other guys stepping up to grab the wins. If the twins don't dominate a game the canucks don't win in the playoffs. They have dominated plenty of playoff games yet beyond kesler for 3 or 4 playoff games no one else has done so in 5 years.

No, I can say that because they're 200+ pounds and they can't skate but they still play with zero grit and won't take the body at all.


They play in the corners and boards all game and win far more puck battles than they lose. Geez. Oh no they don't throw a body check! They must be soft! give me a break. You won't find many players that are grittier than they are. They take an absolute beating every shift.
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby Rumsfeld » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:38 am

Your examples of Krejci, Toews, Kopitar... all have had at least one playoff of total domination and took their team on their backs.

All are also superb two-way players who find ways to win games when they aren't scoring. You don't see them floundering around in their own end chasing pucks shift after shift like we saw with the perfectly-healthy Sedins this year.

There is a lot more to playoff hockey than offensive statistics.

tantalum wrote: You won't find many players that are grittier than they are. They take an absolute beating every shift.


LOL. So getting your ass kicked and giving nothing back EVER equates to grittiness in tant's world. Getting punched in the face repeatedly by a guy half your size and taking it doesn't make you tough. Kind of the opposite actually...
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby Topper » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:48 am

Tant' I just looked through HockeyDB and while your examples have some validity, the problem is, the Sedin's do not elevate their game come post season.

They are p/g players - period. Kreji and Bergeron are not p/g players in the regular season, they do however, unlike the Sedins, elevate their games come playoff time.

The twins consistency is their biggest "fault" in this case. Kane and Toews are similar in that respect.
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby Rumsfeld » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:56 am

Kane can at least hide behind the fact that he's about 170 pounds soaking wet, despite whatever bullshit weight he's listed at. And he's still more physical than the twins.
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby SKYO » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:35 pm

Seen this on HF:

DarrenDreger Quote:
If Pens lose series in 4 or 5 games the offseason storylines may be interesting. Some think Malkin becomes a trade target. Tough call.


Kesler for Malkin?

or both Sedins for Malkin? both ufa's after next season :)
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby tantalum » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:15 pm

Topper wrote:Tant' I just looked through HockeyDB and while your examples have some validity, the problem is, the Sedin's do not elevate their game come post season.

They are p/g players - period. Kreji and Bergeron are not p/g players in the regular season, they do however, unlike the Sedins, elevate their games come playoff time.

The twins consistency is their biggest "fault" in this case. Kane and Toews are similar in that respect.


But do they dominate or even play well in EVERY series? The answer is unequivocally NO. Toews in the cup year had 3 points in the final and was an stellar -5 for instance. But as you mention they are similar in that respect. But look...Krejci last year had 3 points in 7 games, in the cup year he had a terrible Habs series. This year he has one huge Leaf series and two consistent ones (not unlike Henrik in the cup run at this point). This playoff year Bergeron had a poor first round and since then has raised his play but I wouldn't say he's raised his play in the playoffs compared to the regular season. That line is still struggling up until the last couple games. And honestly, I think Bergeron is a hell of a player that is almost as good at the offensive end as the twins (in a different way) but is one of the elite defensive centers in the league. He's a better player than Kesler even when Kesler was firing on all cylinders (though more of a setup man). To me he has tremendous value...far more than Krejci for instance.

btw Bergeron PPG is lower in the playoffs than regular season for his career. Krejci is strange...I've had the guy in a keeper pool for years and he is like Iginla. Terrible starts than sometime in January he hits his stride and is a PPG player. This year was the reverse where he started off like lightening and was terrible the last 15-20 games of the regular season. I think it is also hard to compare playoff stats when the Bruins get the priviledge of playing defensive "powerhouses" like the Leafs, Pens, Lightening etc. I have no doubt that the twins would have lit up Reimer and the Leafs like a Christmas tree.
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby Lancer » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:42 pm

SKYO wrote:Seen this on HF:

DarrenDreger Quote:
If Pens lose series in 4 or 5 games the offseason storylines may be interesting. Some think Malkin becomes a trade target. Tough call.


Kesler for Malkin?

or both Sedins for Malkin? both ufa's after next season :)


Imagine a Kesler-Malkin 1-2 punch? Pipe-dreaming because there's no way the organization will part with the Sedins. Gillis has made his social contract with the core, and it's one thing to trade an Edler or (at most) a Kesler but a totally different thing to trade the two central pieces of the team.

Malkin for Kesler??? Tough, tough call. Malkin, I think, could use a change of scenery but while he would likely create more offense there's no way he could provide the two-way play Kesler can provide.

Bold move nonetheless.

As an aside, I don't think Malkin is the problem s much as in net. Luongo anyone???
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby Rumsfeld » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:47 pm

Malkin for Kesler, lol.
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby dbr » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:50 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Malkin for Kesler, lol.


And Schneider, and Edler, and we get to buy out Marc-Andre Fleury for the privilege of a year of Malkin under contract.

I bet we'd see Pavel's number retired by October, have him on the payroll by December and in Evgeni's ear talking extension come January.. :lol:
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Re: CHI v. LA and BOS v. PIT (and Van v. ...Beuller...anybod

Postby Rumsfeld » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:56 pm

dbr wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote:Malkin for Kesler, lol.


And Schneider, and Edler, and we get to buy out Marc-Andre Fleury for the privilege of a year of Malkin under contract.


Yep, that might get'er done for the second-best player in the world.

Either some folks have completely overvalued our players or they've been railing too many 8-bees of Donald's bumdust.
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