Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby Hockey Widow » Sat May 25, 2013 12:13 am

To me it's not about giving up on Edler but it is about landing a true top six who can provide needed secondary scoring. Edler just may be that piece to get that. It won't be about cap either because what comes back will be similar cap.

Defensive injuries worry me though as we are not too deep. I like Edler but I think any number of teams would trade some good pieces to get a player like him locked up.
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby FAN » Sat May 25, 2013 1:17 am

Vader wrote:Obviously Edler had a tough year but how do replace 50+ points from the back end?

Edler will bounce back

How do you replace Edler's production? By committee? Edler is a consistent offensive producer. There's no doubt about it. The team isn't "better" without Edler. But his cap hit is $5M and his defensive struggles began before this season even begin. If Gillis makes the right moves, can that $5M be better spent? Keep in mind that Hamhuis did outscore Edler, Garrison contributes with goals, Bieksa can play an offensive role, and Tanev can produce more offensively.
FAN
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby Per » Sat May 25, 2013 5:40 am

herb wrote:I'd do Edler straight up.

:oops:

Not sure "straight" is the right word here, but whatever floats your boat...
User avatar
Per
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1702
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:45 am

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby Orcasfan » Sat May 25, 2013 9:09 am

Most of us are all agreed that Edler has all the tools to be a true #1 D. His problem has been consistency and putting them all together in one season! He is not "soft" (he has shown he can really throw big hits), he is not totally useless defensively either. I think his problem is in his head! He simply lacks the real confidence it takes to be a #1. So far, he has shown that he is more comfortable in the #2 or 3 role - without the pressure and scrutiny that gets put on a #1 D.

His problem may have been exacerbated by being thrust into the top D role too early. I see Alex as a bit of a late bloomer in the sense that he is a quiet, shy guy without a big ego. For his personality this can mean that it would take him longer to develop that real self confidence (not a shallow version that comes with cocky kids sometimes). And, even for a quiet Swede, he is "quiet". This path of development is not unusual for Swedish players. Even with (the- god-known-as-) Lidstrom, it wasn't until he was 25 plus, that he started to show his true dominant talent. Trading Edler now would probably come back to haunt us like the Cam Neely trade. I would not be surprised to see Edler really put it all together somewhere else if we let him go.

Maybe he would do better under new coaches...no telling. And I do see that he is the one piece that could net a real top 6 scorer. A tough decision, for sure. I would say that if Gillis were unsuccessful in obtaining the needed top 6 forward by other means, then he needs to pursue this Edler possible trade. Of course, this means GMMG has to be wheeling and dealing from now until the draft to see what he can pull out of his hat! And I don't really have much faith in our sad-sack GM's ability to land top talent via other trades. So, I guess we will need to say bye-bye to Edler, after all.
User avatar
Orcasfan
CC Veteran
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:28 pm

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby nuckster » Sat May 25, 2013 9:52 am

Edler will bounce back[/quote]
How do you replace Edler's production? By committee? Edler is a consistent offensive producer. There's no doubt about it. The team isn't "better" without Edler. But his cap hit is $5M and his defensive struggles began before this season even begin. If Gillis makes the right moves, can that $5M be better spent? Keep in mind that Hamhuis did outscore Edler, Garrison contributes with goals, Bieksa can play an offensive role, and Tanev can produce more offensively.[/quote]

Honestly, I'm coming to the belief/understanding that most of the thoughts that are posted here are frikin nonsense. With my own eyes, I watched Edler single-handedly enact bone-headed plays which ended up costing us two crucial play-off games in the last two play-off series. Yeah sure he has an upside, but he is prone to playing w/o thought and it's costly.

Our... no, MY experience over the last couple of years here shows that we as speculators, know sweet fuck all, and now, it's really questionable about Gillis and what he can actually deliver? He just went all year w/o addressing key issues on the Canucks and now we're supposed to operate with the belief that he is going to do 'things differently? My understanding of things is that the best predictor of the future is the person's past record. As much as RoyalDude tends to get under people's skin sometimes, I commend him for having the wherewithall to buck the on-going blind trend on here for posters to give this undeserved loyalty to Gillis. He inherited a winner ... was extremely fortunate (I believe Nonis is now where Gillis was 5 years ago).

ARGH, so what am I trying to say here? This last season was a bit of a 'cluster-fuck' and most of us know that although AV was not perfect, it could just as easily have fell on MG's shoulders. Do I believe that MG has the ability to make the changes necessary to 'right the ship'? I'm skeptical. But I really don't believe, as many others seem to, that there should be 'untouchables'. When it all plays out, what has our experience shown us to date? We here don't have a frikin clue how it's going to unfold.... that is for certain.
cc oldtimer
nuckster
CC Veteran
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby FAN » Sat May 25, 2013 10:49 am

Orcasfan wrote:Most of us are all agreed that Edler has all the tools to be a true #1 D. His problem has been consistency and putting them all together in one season! He is not "soft" (he has shown he can really throw big hits), he is not totally useless defensively either. I think his problem is in his head! He simply lacks the real confidence it takes to be a #1. So far, he has shown that he is more comfortable in the #2 or 3 role - without the pressure and scrutiny that gets put on a #1 D.

His problem may have been exacerbated by being thrust into the top D role too early. I see Alex as a bit of a late bloomer in the sense that he is a quiet, shy guy without a big ego. For his personality this can mean that it would take him longer to develop that real self confidence (not a shallow version that comes with cocky kids sometimes). And, even for a quiet Swede, he is "quiet". This path of development is not unusual for Swedish players. Even with (the- god-known-as-) Lidstrom, it wasn't until he was 25 plus, that he started to show his true dominant talent. Trading Edler now would probably come back to haunt us like the Cam Neely trade. I would not be surprised to see Edler really put it all together somewhere else if we let him go.

Tell me you did not just compare Edler to Lidstrom... :shock:

Anyhow, some guys just never put it together. Jovo never did. Your point that Edler's problems may have been exacerbated by being thrust into the top D role too early simply doesn't make sense. Throughout most of Edler's NHL career, the Canucks had quality top 4 defensemen. Edler never had to play 25+ minutes. In fact, Edler was paired with veteran stable partners in Ohlund and Salo for most of his career, both of whom were quality top 4 defensemen in the NHL. Let's face it, Edler didn't regularly go up against another team's top lines (Mitchell and Hamhuis did and QoC stats support this) and he consistently had one of the highest offensive zone start percentage of Canucks defensemen.

In no way was Edler forced to make a big jump. Edler has been one of the Canucks' best defensemen for year and his minutes were never much more than other Canucks defensemen. Edler's struggles began before he signed his big extension (in a non-contract year). Edler's extension made him the highest paid defensemen on the team and he's been playing on the first unit PP (confidence booster?). The Canucks happen to have a solid group of top 4 defensemen (Edler shouldn't feel like he has to carry the load). If anything, Edler was never really forced to step up.

I too am hoping that Edler bounces back and I think he will if his back hasn't permanently ruined his game. He's a better defender than what we have seen since the LA series. I don't, however, think he will put it together to be the #1 defensemen he is capable of being. He's going to be a very valuable top 4 defensemen whether he stays or go.
FAN
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby Lancer » Sat May 25, 2013 5:01 pm

FAN wrote:
Orcasfan wrote:Most of us are all agreed that Edler has all the tools to be a true #1 D. His problem has been consistency and putting them all together in one season! He is not "soft" (he has shown he can really throw big hits), he is not totally useless defensively either. I think his problem is in his head! He simply lacks the real confidence it takes to be a #1. So far, he has shown that he is more comfortable in the #2 or 3 role - without the pressure and scrutiny that gets put on a #1 D.

His problem may have been exacerbated by being thrust into the top D role too early. I see Alex as a bit of a late bloomer in the sense that he is a quiet, shy guy without a big ego. For his personality this can mean that it would take him longer to develop that real self confidence (not a shallow version that comes with cocky kids sometimes). And, even for a quiet Swede, he is "quiet". This path of development is not unusual for Swedish players. Even with (the- god-known-as-) Lidstrom, it wasn't until he was 25 plus, that he started to show his true dominant talent. Trading Edler now would probably come back to haunt us like the Cam Neely trade. I would not be surprised to see Edler really put it all together somewhere else if we let him go.

Tell me you did not just compare Edler to Lidstrom... :shock:

Anyhow, some guys just never put it together. Jovo never did. Your point that Edler's problems may have been exacerbated by being thrust into the top D role too early simply doesn't make sense. Throughout most of Edler's NHL career, the Canucks had quality top 4 defensemen. Edler never had to play 25+ minutes. In fact, Edler was paired with veteran stable partners in Ohlund and Salo for most of his career, both of whom were quality top 4 defensemen in the NHL. Let's face it, Edler didn't regularly go up against another team's top lines (Mitchell and Hamhuis did and QoC stats support this) and he consistently had one of the highest offensive zone start percentage of Canucks defensemen.

In no way was Edler forced to make a big jump. Edler has been one of the Canucks' best defensemen for year and his minutes were never much more than other Canucks defensemen. Edler's struggles began before he signed his big extension (in a non-contract year). Edler's extension made him the highest paid defensemen on the team and he's been playing on the first unit PP (confidence booster?). The Canucks happen to have a solid group of top 4 defensemen (Edler shouldn't feel like he has to carry the load). If anything, Edler was never really forced to step up.

I too am hoping that Edler bounces back and I think he will if his back hasn't permanently ruined his game. He's a better defender than what we have seen since the LA series. I don't, however, think he will put it together to be the #1 defensemen he is capable of being. He's going to be a very valuable top 4 defensemen whether he stays or go.


The first question to ask is whether the Canucks need a 40-50 pts top-4 Dman making $5 million more than a legit top-six forward who makes as much or less. It's not a matter of how good or bad Edler has been or could be. It's a matter of whether Gillis wants to tie up that amount of salary into what Edler brings now that he's admitted that the team needs significant change and whether Edler would fetch in trade what Gillis requires in order to pursue this 'reset' of the team.

The second is who will eat up the minutes Edler used to take up? Will it be spread among all pairings or will we see what Garrison or Bieksa can do with more minutes?

In order to address the roster needs someone big has to go and Edler, as good as he's been, is the best and most trade-able asset Gillis has. The blueline won't be the same, but I don't think it will be a disastrous subtraction.
Love the Sport. Love the Team.

Hate the League.
User avatar
Lancer
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1267
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:41 am
Location: Arnprior, Ontario

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby Rede » Sat May 25, 2013 5:57 pm

I could see Gillis targeting Boyd Gordon as a Manny replacement. 8th in the league in FO percentage last season.
User avatar
Rede
CC Veteran
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:45 pm

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby Vader » Mon May 27, 2013 7:26 pm

Didn't realize Bryan Bickell was UFA till tonight...Big guy, good hands, physical type of forward Gillis should be looking for. Has been somewhat caught in numbers game in Chicago. 23 points in 48 games this year, zero on the PP, in under 13 mins / game.
Vader
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 248
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:37 pm

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby Rumsfeld » Fri May 31, 2013 1:20 pm

Sign Clarkson and Clowe. Package Burrows and Bieksa for a center and a stay-at-home D.

Haven't really checked out UFA defencemen yet.
Registered mammyrammer
User avatar
Rumsfeld
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm
Location: Torts' doghouse

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby Rumsfeld » Fri May 31, 2013 1:52 pm

FAN wrote:Tell me you did not just compare Edler to Lidstrom... :shock:


A lot of analysts were comparing him to a poor man's Lidstrom a few years ago, in terms of what he could become.

Big, smooth, great passer and a good shot. Lugs the puck up the ice well.

Unfortunately, in terms of positioning, decision-making and overall defensive proficiency, he is about as far from Lidstrom at this point as Bieksa is from Ray Bourque.

It's pretty obvious that his chronic back issues have made him go from being occasionally physical to not physical at all. For a guy his size playing his position that is pretty much unacceptable, especially in this conference.

I'm not adamant that we trade him at this point, I think he could still take another step forward or two. But if the return was good enough and we bolster the D through other avenues, go for it.
Registered mammyrammer
User avatar
Rumsfeld
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm
Location: Torts' doghouse

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby herb » Fri May 31, 2013 2:22 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Sign Clarkson and Clowe. Package Burrows and Bieksa for a center and a stay-at-home D.

Haven't really checked out UFA defencemen yet.


Yes to Clarkson.

Clowe apparently wants to stay in the East. I'm not sure much I'd want us to overpay on a long term contract for 31 year old Ryan Clowe either.
User avatar
herb
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby Rumsfeld » Fri May 31, 2013 2:25 pm

herb wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote:Sign Clarkson and Clowe. Package Burrows and Bieksa for a center and a stay-at-home D.

Haven't really checked out UFA defencemen yet.


Yes to Clarkson.

Clowe apparently wants to stay in the East. I'm not sure much I'd want us to overpay on a long term contract for 31 year old Ryan Clowe either.


Yeah I hadn't heard Clowe wants to stay out East.

I know he'd be a gamble but I think he's gonna have a big season and he's exactly the kind of guy we could use up front. Kassian could learn a few things from him.
Registered mammyrammer
User avatar
Rumsfeld
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm
Location: Torts' doghouse

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby donlever » Fri May 31, 2013 2:31 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Yeah I hadn't heard Clowe wants to stay out East.



He apparently had a choice, Vancouver or the Rangers.

He chose New York in the hopes of signing an extension there due to a desire to be closer to home.

Or so they say...Botch says Canucks were right in the mix until Clowe made his choice.

His desire to paly here may have dwindled due to the fact AV has been shitcanned.
A different goddamn hockey talk messageboard!
User avatar
donlever
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1607
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:07 pm

Re: Which Free Agents Should Gillis Shoot For

Postby Aaronp18 » Fri May 31, 2013 2:38 pm

donlever wrote:His desire to paly here may have dwindled due to the fact AV has been shitcanned.


And the NYR have a coaching vacancy.

Could be the best of both worlds for Clowe.
User avatar
Aaronp18
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:36 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Canucks Corner Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Canuck-One, MSNbot Media, NzVanFan and 8 guests