Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby UWSaint » Tue May 28, 2013 1:50 pm

A very appropriate conversation.

Too often, trade talks surround who we don't want on the Canucks, as opposed to Canucks that other teams want to see in their uniforms (for the right cap hit). Alex Edler is in the latter category, fortunately for those who miscategorize him in the former. Other players in this category that are no longer "prospects" and do not have a no trade clause include Cory Schnieder, Alex Burrows, Ryan Kesler, Jannik Hansen, and Chris Tanev. If you want to materially improve through trades, you have to consider training high upside prospects (do we have any -- Kassian?) or these players.

Whether or not to trade Alex Edler depends, of course, on the return and whether you have a better team when all is said and done (unless you are dealing for the future and have given up on this group). It seems to be conventional wisdom that the Canucks' main problem is scoring. The problem with dealing Edler is that Edler is the most well rounded offensive defenseman on the team. He did hit a cold spell last season (that coincided with the power play outage), but by and large Edler has been providing second line forward numbers from the back end. (This is why Tsico is right to want a first liner). I am not nearly as concerned about trading Edler for what it will do to the Cancuks' defense as I am as to what it will do to its offense. Edler is the key transitional defensemen.

Edler's offense from the blue line must be replaced by the return or by enhancing Dan Hamhuis' role, which may have begun this past season. Note that I didn't say Jason Garrison. It is misguided to think that Garrison can or should replace Edler on the 1st PP Unit. Garrison is critical to the 2nd unit's success -- the 2nd unit is centered around Garrison. That's the playbook: pass to Garrison, Garrison shoots while others stand in front of the goalie. The first unit is centered on the Sedins (and hopefully a healthy Kesler). Move the puck. Cross seam passes. Misdirection. Changing angles. Use all 5 players.

It isn't an efficient allocation of resources to have the Sedins on a power play built on getting things to Garrison as the primary play. If it wasn't that, it is a waste to have Garrison forced to do well what he does poorly (passing capability and vision) to best exploit the Sedins.

No, it is about whether Dan Hamhuis can take on Edler's role.

Or of course, the return.

It is always about the return.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby sagebrush » Tue May 28, 2013 2:12 pm

Edler seems to be well regarded by other organizations. It doesn't make sense to have three highly paid D who don't play as well on the right side. Edler looks like the basis of a good hockey trade. A trade that makes the Canucks better.

Not necessarily a trade for a forward though. The Canucks don't have two right side D that are legitimate top 4 guys.
We've seen what happens when Bieksa is out, or plays injured. It isn't pretty.

With luck, we'll need to make room on the left for Peter Andersson soon.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby SKYO » Tue May 28, 2013 2:18 pm

sagebrush wrote:Edler seems to be well regarded by other organizations. It doesn't make sense to have three highly paid D who don't play as well on the right side. Edler looks like the basis of a good hockey trade. A trade that makes the Canucks better.

Not necessarily a trade for a forward though. The Canucks don't have two right side D that are legitimate top 4 guys.
We've seen what happens when Bieksa is out, or plays injured. It isn't pretty.


Well this is an offseason where MG get's tested on his trades skills as he's going to have to make more than one big trade.

imo MG should hire a senior advisor who has 'connects' in the small GM circle out there, even if it's just to help facilitate trades a bit. *Stan Smyl can only help so much in that regard.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby sagebrush » Tue May 28, 2013 2:29 pm

^^ Lack of faith in Gillis' abilty to make trades does not reflect well on him. Crunch time is here.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Orcasfan » Tue May 28, 2013 4:22 pm

Ditto, Saint! Given the complexities of the challenges facing GMMG, I think we would be naive to hope that he can fix everything this off-season. So, everyone recognizes that we need a legit 3rd C. But we also want size, speed, skill and youth. Obviously, most teams are looking for the same player! So the price goes up! In a trade, we would likely overpay for that player. So, the question becomes " is the cost too much", does it create imbalances/holes elsewhere?

In some ways, we are in the opposite boat when we look at dealing Edler. I think there are at least 20 teams who would love to obtain that guy! But how much are they willing to pay? Edler is not Weber, after all. We might get offers with a roster player who has less value, but also including pick(s). This is the kind of juggling of asset values that, unfortunately, GMMG has little experience with. And his assessment of supplemental assets leaves much to be desired! Scary...

If they move Edler, they will have to go shopping for some kind of reasonable replacement (the offensive type that Saint and I have been describing). At this point, no one in the prospect pool could possibly jump into that top 4 role. This is a situation that GMs like Murray (?) and Shero excel at. Ours...not so much, ay?
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Meds » Tue May 28, 2013 4:27 pm

FAN wrote:
Meds wrote:My take.....

Skating - Edler.
Positioning - Garrison.
Shooting - Garrison.
Hitting - Edler.
Poise - Garrison.
Passing - Garrison.
Puck Carrying - Edler.
Puck Moving - Garrison.
Consistency - Garrison.


How you came to the conclusion that Garrison is better at passing the puck and moving the puck up ice is beyond me. I don't even remember Garrison making a nice pass or carrying the puck up ice. Granted, Garrison was playing off his backhand a lot since he was playing on the right side so he would often win the puck in the corners and chip the puck up to a forward off his backhand.


There is a difference between puck moving and a puck carrying/rushing defenseman. Edler is the latter, Garrison is the former. Garrison often makes the smart pass, the one that gets to the player who is in a position to transition the play up to the offensive zone. Edler often makes the risky play and his pass is not easily received or ends up targeting a teammate who is in traffic and can't make a good play on the puck. If you look, I said Edler is the better puck carrying defenseman because when Edler has some room he is better at skating it up the ice.

FAN wrote:Garrison is simply not that good of a puck moving defenseman and got to the NHL playing a safe game and utilizing his big shot. Garrison can make the all important first pass just fine, but he's not a talented stickhandler so if he doesn't have room to make that first pass he'll make the safe play. Edler on the other hand will carry the puck if the pass isn't there and open up passing lanes. I think virtually all of Garrison's assists came off his shot or second assists.


See? You made my point for me about his puck moving. :P

When Edler was moved to the 2nd unit his point production dropped dramatically. I think if you look at the stats you'll get the picture.....

Edler had 8G 14A for 22P this year.

Garrison had 8G 8A for 16P this year.

Edler had 3G and 9A at even strength this season, he was often out with the Sedins.

Garrison had 5G and 5A at even strength this season, he was often NOT out with our top line.

Edler had 5PPG and 5PPA this year. He was almost ALWAYS out with the top unit. Most of his assists WERE second assists.

Garrison had 3PPG and 3PPA this year. He was almost NEVER out with the top unit.

Edler also had almost a full game's worth of minutes more than Garrison when it came to PP time this season. That's essentially 30 more PP's to produce points on, and he was on the top unit with our best players most of the time. He managed 4 more PP points.

On the PP Edler routinely flubbed the puck at the point and the Canucks lost the zone. Edler is prone to making a stupid pass when pressured at the point, or he will try and force a wrist shot through that is often blocked. There were plenty of occasions this year where Edler's shot or slap pass was blocked by a forward and the result was a breakaway or a Canuck in the box for 2 minutes after taking a penalty trying to recover and prevent a scoring chance.

Garrison routinely hustled to keep the puck in and maintain pressure on the PP. Garrison unloads a cannon of a shot with a wind up that barely comes up higher than his knees. The pass doesn't need to be perfect, he adjusts and gets it off. I'm pretty sure he hits the net at least as often as Edler, probably more often. I can't find stats on it, but given the difference in PP ice-time and time on the ice with the Sedins, for Edler to only have recorded 19 more shots than Garrison tells me he missed the net a bunch. I would like to see the stats on the number of times that the PP was forced to reset because Edler couldn't handle a pass at the point or put the puck out of the zone off of a PK'ers shins.

Edler was a minus-5 this year. Garrison was a plus-18. Plus 18 tied him for second overall in the league among defensemen. The simple translation is that the team scored more with Garrison on the ice, and allowed fewer with him on the ice.


FAN wrote:In short, Edler is good with the puck and Garrison is average at best. I prefer Garrison shooting the puck, but in a nonshooting situation, I want the puck on Edler's stick rather than Garrison's stick. Garrison is better defensively, but Edler is far and away the superior puck moving defensemen.


No. In short, Edler is above average when carrying the puck and almost poor with the puck under pressure. Garrison is average when carrying the puck and smart with the puck under pressure. In a non-shooting situation I want the puck on Garrison's stick because he won't force something that results in a turnover or a forced regroup in the neutral zone. Garrison is better defensively and plays a smarter positional game at both ends. Edler is simply a better skater and carries the puck better, he is not, however, far and away the superior puck moving defenseman, and he is a greater liability at both ends of the ice.

Am I saying Garrison is a puck rushing, offensively talented, defenseman? No. I'm saying he's a two-way guy who can play smart hockey in his own zone and make the right play on the puck to get the team turning things back the other way on offense.....and in a conference where aggressive forechecking, high pressure PK'ing, and low scoring games, are the going trend, Garrison is a better option than Edler.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Meds » Tue May 28, 2013 4:48 pm

UWSaint wrote:A very appropriate conversation.

Too often, trade talks surround who we don't want on the Canucks, as opposed to Canucks that other teams want to see in their uniforms (for the right cap hit). Alex Edler is in the latter category, fortunately for those who miscategorize him in the former. Other players in this category that are no longer "prospects" and do not have a no trade clause include Cory Schnieder, Alex Burrows, Ryan Kesler, Jannik Hansen, and Chris Tanev. If you want to materially improve through trades, you have to consider training high upside prospects (do we have any -- Kassian?) or these players.


That is pretty much the most logical take on it.....and you are right, except when you said that Kesler does not have a no trade clause. His NTC went into effect at the beginning of the 2012/13 season. Unless of course it was deemed null and void by the new CBA and the lack of 2012 play in the 2012/13 season. :P

UW wrote:Whether or not to trade Alex Edler depends, of course, on the return and whether you have a better team when all is said and done (unless you are dealing for the future and have given up on this group). It seems to be conventional wisdom that the Canucks' main problem is scoring. The problem with dealing Edler is that Edler is the most well rounded offensive defenseman on the team. He did hit a cold spell last season (that coincided with the power play outage), but by and large Edler has been providing second line forward numbers from the back end. (This is why Tsico is right to want a first liner). I am not nearly as concerned about trading Edler for what it will do to the Cancuks' defense as I am as to what it will do to its offense. Edler is the key transitional defensemen.


Here I have to disagree. I think that the numbers point to Garrison being the most well rounded defenseman on the team. Though, Edler may be our only "offensive" defenseman. Being a minus-5, despite putting up 8 goals and 22 points and playing a large percentage of his minutes with our top scoring forwards, tells me that he's not as well rounded as you would like to think. There is no arguing that he has been providing second line forward numbers from the back end, but Hamhuis and Bieksa have been fairly close in that regard and they haven't been the benefactors of nearly the same number of PP opportunities with the Sedins and Kesler that Edler has been. The argument for Burrows worth as a point producing two-way forward often gets hung up on the same point, when you play with elite scoring forwards all of the time, you are going to get your points. Look no further than Pascal Dupuis in Pittsburgh, the most goals he ever scored in a single season was 25, and he had peaked at 59 points. Suddenly he's with Crosby, and if not for the shortened season, he's looking at 40 goals and 70+ points. Edler fits that bill with many of his numbers because of his TOI with the Sedins. He also benefited quite nicely in 2010/11 from being partnered with Christian Ehrhoff.

But, nonetheless, you are right about it being all about the return.



UW wrote:Edler's offense from the blue line must be replaced by the return or by enhancing Dan Hamhuis' role, which may have begun this past season. Note that I didn't say Jason Garrison. It is misguided to think that Garrison can or should replace Edler on the 1st PP Unit. Garrison is critical to the 2nd unit's success -- the 2nd unit is centered around Garrison. That's the playbook: pass to Garrison, Garrison shoots while others stand in front of the goalie. The first unit is centered on the Sedins (and hopefully a healthy Kesler). Move the puck. Cross seam passes. Misdirection. Changing angles. Use all 5 players.

It isn't an efficient allocation of resources to have the Sedins on a power play built on getting things to Garrison as the primary play. If it wasn't that, it is a waste to have Garrison forced to do well what he does poorly (passing capability and vision) to best exploit the Sedins.

No, it is about whether Dan Hamhuis can take on Edler's role.


I think that having a new coaching staff and what should be a new approach to the offense and gameplan makes this a point that is not worth debating as far as what trading Edler would mean for the blueline and PP in the future.

Under the current system Garrison absolutely should have replaced Edler on the point on a full time basis. The Sedins perimeter approach and cross seam passes were completely ineffectual. Teams were ready for it and our first PP unit was totally static most of the time, the only exception was a 2 and 3 man cycle along the wall from the half-boards to the corner. Garrison being out there forced opposing PK'ers to respect a legitimate scoring threat from the point, and one they couldn't cheat off of because they didn't have the 1 second cushion that Edler provided for them most of the time when he had to settle the puck. Garrison would either get his rocket off or read the attacking forward and cycle the puck back to the other point or down to his near-side forward. The 2nd unit was far more dynamic as far as the forwards were concerned and they often looked more dangerous, they just didn't have the finishing touch, and to be honest, the team as a whole (Kesler excepted) had become far to quick to think pass rather than bury the puck.


UW wrote:It is always about the return.


Indeed it is.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Rede » Tue May 28, 2013 5:32 pm

herb wrote:
Rede wrote:If that was all Elder returns on a very cap friendly deal running through his prime years then I just don't trade Edler. I'm just saying unless its a home run like that I don't move him.


This is the mentality I don't understand.

Our team has disappointed year after year. Every year this core group has not lived up to expectations. Over the past two years in particular, scoring and youth have been identified as major areas of concern, yet fans are afraid of losing some of our players in trades to help alleviate these concerns.

I don't get it. You have to give to get.

For the record, I'd do Edler plus our 1st for the 3rd overall pick. This organization needs a new face of the franchise type superstar talent. Drouin, Mackinnon and Jones have the very real potential of becoming NHL superstars. Alex Edler does not, and the 23rd or 24th overall pick likely does not.


Its not that I wouldn't trade Edler, its that I think he's a top 20 Dman in this league and I think those are very hard to come by and shouldn't be traded for the sake of change. If you're going to make moves to change things up I don't think starting with a guy who you can't replace on your roster is the way to do it.

If I trade Edler I'm looking to trade with a team who is desperate for a player of his calibre who will pay a premium for his services - especially given his excellent contract. If I'm looking to change the core I don't start with a 27-year-old-signed-long-term-to-a-great-deal Edler - I see him as part of the 'new core' to build around. If I move him it'd be because another team convinces me to move him with their offer. I certainly don't trade him and our first round pick for someone who isn't a sure thing and/or may be a year or two away from actually contributing to the same extent Edler does. We have another year or two with the twins playing at a high level... I'd be trying to extend the window while we have them because there aren't any replacements waiting in the wings.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Meds » Tue May 28, 2013 5:38 pm

Rede wrote:If I trade Edler I'm looking to trade with a team who is desperate for a player of his calibre who will pay a premium for his services - especially given his excellent contract. If I'm looking to change the core I don't start with a 27-year-old-signed-long-term-to-a-great-deal Edler - I see him as part of the 'new core' to build around. If I move him it'd be because another team convinces me to move him with their offer. I certainly don't trade him and our first round pick for someone who isn't a sure thing and/or may be a year or two away from actually contributing to the same extent Edler does. We have another year or two with the twins playing at a high level... I'd be trying to extend the window while we have them because there aren't any replacements waiting in the wings.


So you see an inconsistent, turnover prone, emotionless, 27-year-old defenseman as part of the new core that you build around?

Ok. :stupid:

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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Orcasfan » Tue May 28, 2013 5:45 pm

About right now, I lament GMMG not doling out to keep Ehrhoff! Given how some of our $4.5 mil plus D-men are somewhat overpaid (hello Ballard and Casual Kev, let alone our top dollar guy, Edler!), that german guy would have been worth every cent! :hmmm:
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby RoyalDude » Tue May 28, 2013 6:19 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:I trade our first and Edler for Drouin/Mackinnon 10 times out of 10. I like Edler and would like to keep him but you DO NOT pass up a chance to draft a future PPG 18 year old kid who could carry the mail for this team for the next 15 years. I'm not sure I throw in the 1st for Seth Jones however. Edler for Jones is doable but this team needs an impact forward to build around in the worst way.


Lets turn the tables, if you held the 3rd overall pick and the chance to draft either or of McKinnon, Drouin, or Barkov would you pass that opportunity up for Edler and what seemingly will be a 20 something pick in the first round? Elder, a defenseman you and the likes of Meds have been calling shite all year and last?
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby RoyalDude » Tue May 28, 2013 6:20 pm

Who hates who more. Me - Gillis or Meds - Edler? Or should I say - Medsler
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Lancer » Tue May 28, 2013 6:41 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:I trade our first and Edler for Drouin/Mackinnon 10 times out of 10. I like Edler and would like to keep him but you DO NOT pass up a chance to draft a future PPG 18 year old kid who could carry the mail for this team for the next 15 years. I'm not sure I throw in the 1st for Seth Jones however. Edler for Jones is doable but this team needs an impact forward to build around in the worst way.


Lets turn the tables, if you held the 3rd overall pick and the chance to draft either or of McKinnon, Drouin, or Barkov would you pass that opportunity up for Edler and what seemingly will be a 20 something pick in the first round? Elder, a defenseman you and the likes of Meds have been calling shite all year and last?


Needs and wants, Dude.

If you are, say, a team in need of help on the blueline but already have a bevy of good young forwards and you don't want to put up with the learning curve that just about every young D-man goes through, then why don't you? Imagine if this situation was playing out when Edmonton was gathering all their top-5 picks. Take divisional factors out of it, and ask yourself if you wouldn't honestly talk to Gillis about it if you were Tambellini?

Do you take the risk of drafting another Erik Johnson when someone is offering you a surer deal?

No doubt the deal would not be as simple as Edler for a top-5 pick, but look at the bluelines of the teams holding those picks and Edler looks like a conversation-starter.

Then again, this is all supposing that Gillis wants to go that way instead of getting immediate help on the roster. Draft fever seems to be picking up around here. :lol:
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby RoyalDude » Tue May 28, 2013 6:45 pm

Lancer wrote:
Needs and wants, Dude.

If you are, say, a team in need of help on the blueline but already have a bevy of good young forwards and you don't want to put up with the learning curve that just about every young D-man goes through, then why don't you? Imagine if this situation was playing out when Edmonton was gathering all their top-5 picks. Take divisional factors out of it, and ask yourself if you wouldn't honestly talk to Gillis about it if you were Tambellini?

Do you take the risk of drafting another Erik Johnson when someone is offering you a surer deal?

No doubt the deal would not be as simple as Edler for a top-5 pick, but look at the bluelines of the teams holding those picks and Edler looks like a conversation-starter.

Then again, this is all supposing that Gillis wants to go that way instead of getting immediate help on the roster. Draft fever seems to be picking up around here. :lol:


The comedy Lance. On one hand you all have been calling out Edler for two seasons now and how shitty he is, YET a good number of you think it's reasonable to suggest that giving up the chance to draft Mckinnon, Drouin and Barkov for Edler is not a bad idea. Do you see why I'm a lunatic sometimes?

Trust me, this trade will never happen.
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Re: Should Gillis Trade Alexander Edler?

Postby Meds » Tue May 28, 2013 7:15 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
Lancer wrote:
Needs and wants, Dude.

If you are, say, a team in need of help on the blueline but already have a bevy of good young forwards and you don't want to put up with the learning curve that just about every young D-man goes through, then why don't you? Imagine if this situation was playing out when Edmonton was gathering all their top-5 picks. Take divisional factors out of it, and ask yourself if you wouldn't honestly talk to Gillis about it if you were Tambellini?

Do you take the risk of drafting another Erik Johnson when someone is offering you a surer deal?

No doubt the deal would not be as simple as Edler for a top-5 pick, but look at the bluelines of the teams holding those picks and Edler looks like a conversation-starter.

Then again, this is all supposing that Gillis wants to go that way instead of getting immediate help on the roster. Draft fever seems to be picking up around here. :lol:


The comedy Lance. On one hand you all have been calling out Edler for two seasons now and how shitty he is, YET a good number of you think it's reasonable to suggest that giving up the chance to draft Mckinnon, Drouin and Barkov for Edler is not a bad idea. Do you see why I'm a lunatic sometimes?

Trust me, this trade will never happen.


You're right Dude. Straight up this trade never happens.

It's why none of us have said straight up trade.

Edler with a 1st and pieces.....maybe 2 firsts? That might happen. Especially considering the downward trend you keep predicting for the Canucks under Gillis over the next few years until we're the next version of the Calgary Flames.

What's funny is that you seem to forget that people around the hockey world think Edler is all that and a bag of chips.
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