Election Memorial Jr.

The primary goal of this site is to provide mature, meaningful discussion about the Vancouver Canucks. However, we all need a break some time so this forum is basically for anything off-topic, off the wall, or to just get something off your chest! This forum is named after poster Creeper, who passed away in July of 2011 and was a long time member of the Canucks message board community.

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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby BurningBeard » Thu May 16, 2013 12:57 pm

ukcanuck wrote:BC has the highest teacher certification standards in the world. It requires a bachelor degree in a teachable subject and a post degree professional development course for a degree in education. In total a minimum of 5 years investment plus about 60,000.00 in tuition and living expenses. In exchange for bringing that level of training to the table a starting teacher can expect about 40,000.00 dollars a year.

Depending on level of education they currently start at $42,000-$50,000 a year and move in steps to $65,000-$81,000 after 10 years in the work force. They also get what I would describe as a generous pension, which you can start drawing on at 55 years of age. Depending on years of service it tops out at 70% of your highest average salary. After you do the math on how much a teacher can earn after retirement, comparing them to a Starbucks manager is a bit ridiculous. I do not begrudge them the benefits, but I also have a tough time believing they're not paid a decent living wage. The profession sets you up for life.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby ukcanuck » Thu May 16, 2013 1:29 pm

BurningBeard wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:BC has the highest teacher certification standards in the world. It requires a bachelor degree in a teachable subject and a post degree professional development course for a degree in education. In total a minimum of 5 years investment plus about 60,000.00 in tuition and living expenses. In exchange for bringing that level of training to the table a starting teacher can expect about 40,000.00 dollars a year.

Depending on level of education they currently start at $42,000-$50,000 a year and move in steps to $65,000-$81,000 after 10 years in the work force. They also get what I would describe as a generous pension, which you can start drawing on at 55 years of age. Depending on years of service it tops out at 70% of your highest average salary. After you do the math on how much a teacher can earn after retirement, comparing them to a Starbucks manager is a bit ridiculous. I do not begrudge them the benefits, but I also have a tough time believing they're not paid a decent living wage. The profession sets you up for life.

80,000 a year after ten years AND a master's degree you mean but all of that is beside the point. I'm comparing teachers to coffee shop managers because reefer wants to pay people based on the complexity of the job and what the employee brings to the table. If a Starbucks manager makes 50 grand a teacher should make 500 grand. A team of monkeys and a computer can order coffe cups and lids...

Edit: oh and set up for life??
Not in BC. The ministry if education has a shrinking budget. They are cutting teachers positions in every district and have done for the whole time the liberals have been in power. To get a job in BC you need a masters degree and be bilingual because only french immersion schools have any vacancies.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby BurningBeard » Thu May 16, 2013 2:48 pm

ukcanuck wrote:80,000 a year after ten years AND a master's degree you mean but all of that is beside the point. I'm comparing teachers to coffee shop managers because reefer wants to pay people based on the complexity of the job and what the employee brings to the table. If a Starbucks manager makes 50 grand a teacher should make 500 grand. A team of monkeys and a computer can order coffe cups and lids...

Edit: oh and set up for life??
Not in BC. The ministry if education has a shrinking budget. They are cutting teachers positions in every district and have done for the whole time the liberals have been in power. To get a job in BC you need a masters degree and be bilingual because only french immersion schools have any vacancies.

1) I've never read that a master's degree is a requirement to being a teacher in BC, although I'm aware many teachers have them, and they're compensated for them with higher wages. I'm sure there are people who work at Starbucks that have master's degrees too. I also know a number of new teachers personally who are not bilingual.

2) We are currently experiencing a shrinking population in the 5-19 age group, this is a short term trend (the next five years at least). There should probably be more teachers in the system, however, the amount of students in the system per teacher has stayed somewhat steady.

3) I think you underestimate the job of a typical Starbucks manager. I wouldn't want to do the job. If a team of monkeys and a computer could do it, I think Starbucks would just hire a team of monkeys, and not pay someone 50 grand. Who is going to pickup after the monkeys though? And how much are they paid? You have to think this concept all the way through. I don't think it's a sound business case.

I don't think a teacher's wage is very generous to be honest, it's the pension that's generous. That component of their compensation probably does amount to 500 grand on average. Both the BCTF and the government like to hide compensation in the pension.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby herb » Thu May 16, 2013 2:54 pm

UK, if teachers have it so bad, then why are young poeple literally clamouring to get in the teaching door here in BC? I have three friends who have been trying to become teachers, and only one has been successful because there is such a high supply of graduates wanting to become teachers. My ex did a bunch of volunteer BS at a local high school for three years just to get in the door so that she could become a substitute teacher!

Teachers go into their chosen profession knowing they are not picking a very high income career path. A friend of mine who teaches at a private school is paid $65k, which is respectable and certainly a wage many people live comfortably from. She thinks it's absolutely a killer deal given the 14 weeks or whatever vacation she gets a year.

As BB points out, the BC pension teachers are a part of is one of the best.

Teachers do not have it anywhere near as rough as you try to portray.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby Meds » Thu May 16, 2013 2:57 pm

Reefer2 wrote:uk - the health care system in Canada is broken and not amount of money can fix it. The number of seniors is one of the main issues plus the waste that occurs within the system. The people that are being outsourced are not medical people but cleaners and cafeteria type of workers where you don't need anything more than a grade 12 education. Why should they make twice what the private companies pay just because they work in a hospital? What a person is paid is based upon their education and experience and what they bring to the organization they belong to. Poor performers cannot be dealt with because of the union, seniority determines who gets a job not the most qualified. SO what happens is that you need to hire more to make up the poor performer.


The Canadian health care system is not broken, just mismanaged. Money isn't the answer either. It is the abuse and lack of repercussions for abusers. Too many people freak out over nothing and use the ermergency department as a walk-in clinic. The waste that occurs is primarily in the form man hours. I agree with you about the outsourcing. The janitorial and maintenance staffs in hospitals deserve the money they get. They aren't just cleaning up litter and mopping floors that have been trodden upon by dirty feet. They clean up some of the most disgusting and foul messes you will ever see. They do that on a fairly regular basis too. Not just once a week.

Unions are perhaps the most frustrating entity I have ever encountered. They have their very strong points and their completely useless ones. They protect people from management and employers who would play favorites and wrongfully terminate people based on personal grudges and so forth. They shelter and protect lazy people who don't want to do a damn thing. If you think that it is all based on seniority you are wrong. You have the qualifications to do the job.....mostly. Seniority is just the trump card between qualified individuals. Some people might have a greater aptitude for a position, certainly a better attitude often comes in to play, and that is where seniority first becomes troublesome.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby Topper » Thu May 16, 2013 2:59 pm

A Masters degree is NOT mandatory for teachers in BC. Many do coarse work while teaching with a Bachelors degree to obtain a Masters.

Teachers wages are based on a 12mo year and their benefit packages with medical, paid health days, paid profession development, paid holidays, life insurance and more ensures their wages are extremely good for their qualifications. Combine that with a system that promotes based on length of service not merit and it is a cherry of a job.

It is no wonder that so many people who fail at their initially chosen field take up teaching.

Where teachers have problems entering the field it is because they are unwilling to take positions in very rural environments. many prospective teachers are unwilling to move. Those willing to do so have positions.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby Aaronp18 » Thu May 16, 2013 3:04 pm

Topper wrote:It is no wonder that so many people who fail at their initially chosen field take up teaching.


Yeah, like Starbucks managers.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby Meds » Thu May 16, 2013 3:11 pm

herb wrote:UK, if teachers have it so bad, then why are young poeple literally clamouring to get in the teaching door here in BC? I have three friends who have been trying to become teachers, and only one has been successful because there is such a high supply of graduates wanting to become teachers. My ex did a bunch of volunteer BS at a local high school for three years just to get in the door so that she could become a substitute teacher!


I know a lot of people who were all keen to go into teaching after graduation. Some of them did. Some of them didn't. The ones who didn't changed their mind because they found out that it actually isn't such an easy job. Half of the teachers need the 8-10 weeks off over the summer and 2+ other weeks through the year because they desperately need the time away from the school system and the kids.

Some teachers, the lousy ones that kids love, are content to just put on a video and let that form of media do the job for them.....don't belittle them though, it's their "teaching method".

I'm not slagging teachers, the good ones burn themselves out pouring into hundreds of kids every year and only reap the reward of seeing a select few actually reach their potential.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby Meds » Thu May 16, 2013 3:18 pm

Topper wrote:A Masters degree is NOT mandatory for teachers in BC. Many do coarse work while teaching with a Bachelors degree to obtain a Masters.


Icing on the cake for them is that after they obtain their Masters degree they get a nice hike in pay. One fellow I knew was an elementary school teacher who quietly, and slowly, worked on his Masters for years, then finished it a few years before retirement in order to maximize his pension.

Topper wrote:Where teachers have problems entering the field it is because they are unwilling to take positions in very rural environments. many prospective teachers are unwilling to move. Those willing to do so have positions.


The "Cake and Eat it Too" crowd.

Actually, the whole relocation issue is becoming of more importance to people. Or at least it seems that way. North Americans seem to becoming a bit more European in that department.....at least that is the impression I get from people I talk to.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby Topper » Thu May 16, 2013 3:34 pm

I know I could never be a teacher. For starters I am successful at my chosen field. Second, I can't tolerate whiny little fucks. Third, ever talk to a teacher? They spend so much time speaking kid speak that that is all they know.

I was asked to teach a Junior College level geology coarse once while I was in Belize. I was a hard ass that gave the kids the material and expected them to learn it. At that level they are paying for their schooling so if they want to learn they will, if they don't, too fucking bad, not my job to coddle them along. Two kids failed my class and it fucked them for a year of their environmental sciences program. I had the kids show up at my home asking if they could redo the final or have an extra project to do to raise their mark. I had the program director ask me the same thing.

I told the program director that one student was failing before the final because he only showed up to 20% of the classes. The other entered the final with C- and came out with D. If I were to give out an additional project it would have to be given to the entire class and would be mandatory and would form a portion of everyone's marks. I reminded the director, this was Junior College not elementary school.

My brother was teacher and took me to see his classroom on a Saturday. Most desks were in nice neat rows however there was a desk pushed up along both sides of his desk, another pushed up to the front centre of his desk and two others pushed into the back corners of the room.

I asked why? "Wagonburners," came the reply. Except one of the ones in the back corner was kid who just moved to the area from out of province and his meds ran out before his BCMed kicked in and his folks were too cheep/stupid to get the situation straightened out.

I have a sister doing special needs work in Surrey. Baby sitting the handicapped. The other day she and the teacher told one of the kids to get ready to go because the kids father would be picking him up soon. Kid says his daddy picks him up after work and several others chime in that their fathers work too. Then one kid pipes up with, "my daddy goes to jail a lot and when he's at home he has one of his smokes and then goes to sleep."

We need to get away from the inmates running the asylum and get back to schools being institutions and kids are institutionalized. If teachers want respect from their students they need to demand it, set themselves up as respected individuals above their pupils and quit trying to be their best friends. Students should be calling teachers by Mr./Mrs. or Miss.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby Meds » Thu May 16, 2013 3:50 pm

herb wrote:Meds, I've heard that many health care workers like doctors, nurses, technologists and dentists generally get paid a lot more in the US. What about EMTs?


It's actually tough to get an accurate read on that in the US.

The US is completely privatized. If you look up the average hourly wage of an EMT in the United States you will find something in the $15-$17 range. But that doesn't take into consideration the vast differences in license levels and scope of practice. Many of the EMT's in the US hold what is called an EMT-Basic certification and are simply first responders. They have what amounts to little more than an advanced first aid ticket with a transport endorsement. This is because there are so many small towns that have a tiny little service, and generally speaking the people who do these jobs hold other jobs. The EMT-B gig is either a stepping stone to the next level or something they do for extra cash on the weekends or because they get a rush out of the "emergency services" stuff. Chances are those guys are making $12/hour or less. They have a few intermediate levels in between, and they generally make more, if they work for a service that pays bottom dollar then they are likely doing the job for the "it feels good to help someone out" component. Either way, they aren't likely to be working in an exceptionally busy setting. Probably doing less than 200 calls per year, and most of them routine. Larger centers pay more, Nevada and Washington are the states with the highest paid EMT-Paramedics at $35-$36/hour, chances are these wages reflect the top of the totem pole for skill set and scope of practice. Oklahoma and Montana pay the lowest at $15-$16/hour. Also remember that in the United States your Paramedics and Ambulance are often run by the Fire Departments, and Fire Departments get good funding.

Overall I would say that EMT's don't make the same as RN's. But it does depend on level of license. The highest trained paramedic is far more competent than an RN when it comes to knowledge and skill set. A fully qualified EMT-P or ACP can also find work in the private secotr where they will make $600/day without breaking a sweat. But they will be working in a remote setting such as a diamond mine, drilling rig, etc...

As far as I know BC pays the most per hour for a paramedic when it comes to our CCP (Critical Care Paramedics). There aren't many of them, and they are the most highly trained paramedics in Canada, I would venture to say among the most highly trained in the world. Primarily they are the flight paramedics, but from what I've been told we have one or two ground ambulances now in the lower mainland that are staffed by CCP teams. These guys make up to $40/hour.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby Meds » Thu May 16, 2013 4:15 pm

Topper wrote:I asked why? "Wagonburners," came the reply.


:rofl: Great answer.

Topper wrote:We need to get away from the inmates running the asylum and get back to schools being institutions and kids are institutionalized. If teachers want respect from their students they need to demand it, set themselves up as respected individuals above their pupils and quit trying to be their best friends. Students should be calling teachers by Mr./Mrs. or Miss.


Fucking rights. The coddle me crowd is killing our society. You can't even fail a kid until he hits grade 10, or at least that was the case a few years ago. Kids could just waltz through and get their pass by showing up because failing them and holding them back demeans them in front of their friends. Then grade 11 roles in and if they don't have the knowledge base to have completed grade 10 they can't advance. Well what the fuck says I. You've congratulated them for doing nothing for 10 years and now expect them to grasp the concept of failing? Good luck with that. There are very few kids out there who are too stupid to pass the courses that are part of our public education system. Most of the failures and dropouts are kids who would rather play and have fun rather than apply themselves to the token effort that it takes to get by in a watered down curriculum.

An interesting study has been, or is being, conducted that is looking at this generation coming into their late teen years. It's focusing on how this generation, in North America, has been raised by their peers. They have little use for adults, no idea what it means to respect someone because their older. It's a tragedy. It's also the result of left wing pacifists who have championed the cause of the "down-trodden parent" that wants to see the responsibility for raising kids dumped on the government and the teachers, and the "spare the rod" softies who think that disciplining a child is inhumane and damages the psyche. The other day my wife and I were at the park with our two dogs. Of course the dogs are going to take a shit at some point, their dogs for fuck sakes. There was a group of kids between 7-10 years old walking through the field, and while one of the mutts is lightening his load they start yelling at us, "Hey! Clean up your dog's shit!" My wife was already halfway there with a bag out. She picked it up and then went to pick up the next pile that the other dog had dropped. The kids start yelling orders again, so she holds up the bag and says, "What do you think this is?" So they make some other remark. I told them to shut the fuck up and mind their own business. They were unconcerned and just carried on their way. When I was that age I wouldn't have dared speak like that to a stranger. Let alone one that is 6 and half feet tall and walking a pair of 100 pound dogs. I would have taken off running if said stranger had told me to shut the fuck up. There is a level of respect that goes hand-in-hand with fear, and has been lost, and it is important.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby ukcanuck » Thu May 16, 2013 5:45 pm

Meds wrote:
Topper wrote:I asked why? "Wagonburners," came the reply.


:rofl: Great answer.

Topper wrote:We need to get away from the inmates running the asylum and get back to schools being institutions and kids are institutionalized. If teachers want respect from their students they need to demand it, set themselves up as respected individuals above their pupils and quit trying to be their best friends. Students should be calling teachers by Mr./Mrs. or Miss.


Fucking rights. The coddle me crowd is killing our society. You can't even fail a kid until he hits grade 10, or at least that was the case a few years ago. Kids could just waltz through and get their pass by showing up because failing them and holding them back demeans them in front of their friends. Then grade 11 roles in and if they don't have the knowledge base to have completed grade 10 they can't advance. Well what the fuck says I. You've congratulated them for doing nothing for 10 years and now expect them to grasp the concept of failing? Good luck with that. There are very few kids out there who are too stupid to pass the courses that are part of our public education system. Most of the failures and dropouts are kids who would rather play and have fun rather than apply themselves to the token effort that it takes to get by in a watered down curriculum.

An interesting study has been, or is being, conducted that is looking at this generation coming into their late teen years. It's focusing on how this generation, in North America, has been raised by their peers. They have little use for adults, no idea what it means to respect someone because their older. It's a tragedy. It's also the result of left wing pacifists who have championed the cause of the "down-trodden parent" that wants to see the responsibility for raising kids dumped on the government and the teachers, and the "spare the rod" softies who think that disciplining a child is inhumane and damages the psyche. The other day my wife and I were at the park with our two dogs. Of course the dogs are going to take a shit at some point, their dogs for fuck sakes. There was a group of kids between 7-10 years old walking through the field, and while one of the mutts is lightening his load they start yelling at us, "Hey! Clean up your dog's shit!" My wife was already halfway there with a bag out. She picked it up and then went to pick up the next pile that the other dog had dropped. The kids start yelling orders again, so she holds up the bag and says, "What do you think this is?" So they make some other remark. I told them to shut the fuck up and mind their own business. They were unconcerned and just carried on their way. When I was that age I wouldn't have dared speak like that to a stranger. Let alone one that is 6 and half feet tall and walking a pair of 100 pound dogs. I would have taken off running if said stranger had told me to shut the fuck up. There is a level of respect that goes hand-in-hand with fear, and has been lost, and it is important.


Lol so what you're saying is that even with two 100 pound dogs and a mouthy woman behind you, you still can't scare a 10 year old??? :rofl:
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby Meds » Thu May 16, 2013 6:28 pm

ukcanuck wrote:
Meds wrote:An interesting study has been, or is being, conducted that is looking at this generation coming into their late teen years. It's focusing on how this generation, in North America, has been raised by their peers. They have little use for adults, no idea what it means to respect someone because their older. It's a tragedy. It's also the result of left wing pacifists who have championed the cause of the "down-trodden parent" that wants to see the responsibility for raising kids dumped on the government and the teachers, and the "spare the rod" softies who think that disciplining a child is inhumane and damages the psyche. The other day my wife and I were at the park with our two dogs. Of course the dogs are going to take a shit at some point, their dogs for fuck sakes. There was a group of kids between 7-10 years old walking through the field, and while one of the mutts is lightening his load they start yelling at us, "Hey! Clean up your dog's shit!" My wife was already halfway there with a bag out. She picked it up and then went to pick up the next pile that the other dog had dropped. The kids start yelling orders again, so she holds up the bag and says, "What do you think this is?" So they make some other remark. I told them to shut the fuck up and mind their own business. They were unconcerned and just carried on their way. When I was that age I wouldn't have dared speak like that to a stranger. Let alone one that is 6 and half feet tall and walking a pair of 100 pound dogs. I would have taken off running if said stranger had told me to shut the fuck up. There is a level of respect that goes hand-in-hand with fear, and has been lost, and it is important.


Lol so what you're saying is that even with two 100 pound dogs and a mouthy woman behind you, you still can't scare a 10 year old??? :rofl:


Without threatening physical violence. Probably not.
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Re: Election Memorial Jr.

Postby Island Nucklehead » Thu May 16, 2013 8:30 pm

Topper wrote:I know I could never be a teacher. For starters I am successful at my chosen field. Second, I can't tolerate whiny little fucks. Third, ever talk to a teacher? They spend so much time speaking kid speak that that is all they know.

We need to get away from the inmates running the asylum and get back to schools being institutions and kids are institutionalized. If teachers want respect from their students they need to demand it, set themselves up as respected individuals above their pupils and quit trying to be their best friends. Students should be calling teachers by Mr./Mrs. or Miss.


Good call Topper.

My girlfriend is a teacher in Yellowknife. She got qualified in Ontario, and moved up here for the work. The pay is pretty good, and the benefits are too. 70Gr is only decent money in Yellowknife. The problem is the system. Parents expect teachers to sort their kids out. That's fucking bullshit if you ask me. Teachers should be able to do just that, teach. They shouldn't be sorting out the behaviour issues that come associated with 9 year olds getting iPads, cell phones and $300 hockey sticks just because.

She deals more with parent emails about lil Johnny sitting next to the class bully, or Sally Pisspants being picked last at recess soccer 3 days in a row. She is qualified to teach, right now she's an extremely expensive babysitter.

So, she's looking at leaving teaching, and starting her own early childhood tutoring/school-prep business. She genuinely enjoys helping children learn, but the garbage that comes along with it just isn't worth it to her.
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