Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby tantalum » Wed May 15, 2013 8:11 am

Meds wrote:Someone wake me when this guy has something new, or better yet, intelligent, to contribute.



that hope may have ended when the 5th goal went by Reimer....
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby vic » Wed May 15, 2013 11:40 am

RoyalDude wrote:Ballard and Booth with Flip The Switch with a new coach.... :rofl:

You guys stop! I can't stop laughing :rofl:


Because they put up shittier numbers playing for shittier clubs right?

They played on shittier teams their whole life but put up career numbers with those shittier line mates. Once they HAD to play AV's system their games when to shit. Once AV couldn't find a way to use their strengths their game went to shit.

Ballard was a constant 30+ point guy on FLA and PHO. Booth put up good numbers in FLA. What happened? The coach happened.

Hodgson and Grabner went on to have career years AFTER they left Vancouver - Grabner couldn't even crack the lineup, yet when given a chance to play and develop he becomes a Calder Trophy Candidate.
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby Vader » Wed May 15, 2013 12:19 pm

vic wrote:
Because they put up shittier numbers playing for shittier clubs right?

They played on shittier teams their whole life but put up career numbers with those shittier line mates. Once they HAD to play AV's system their games when to shit. Once AV couldn't find a way to use their strengths their game went to shit.

Ballard was a constant 30+ point guy on FLA and PHO. Booth put up good numbers in FLA. What happened? The coach happened.

Hodgson and Grabner went on to have career years AFTER they left Vancouver - Grabner couldn't even crack the lineup, yet when given a chance to play and develop he becomes a Calder Trophy Candidate.


If you exclude his fluke 60 point season 5 years ago, Booth has historically scored at a 40 point clip with FLA and a 40 point clip with Van. In the words of Number 44, it is what it is

Ballard is just plain overrated. You know why Ballard didn't dress in the playoffs? Because his GM wanted to keep him healthy so he could be bought out in the summer.

Hodgson scored well in limited ice time behind Kesler and Sedin as a rookie. AV managed his minutes very well. And besides, what was AV to do, reduce the Sedin's ice time? And, obviously he would have a career year this year- he's only played two years!

Grabner got hurt during his first stint with Van. Once healthy, AV gave him ice time on Kesler's line during the regular season, and he did produce 11 points in 20 games before the GM dealt him away. Maybe if Gillis had some foresight, he would have dealt Raymond away and kept younger and cheaper Grabner instead...

You also fail to mention how AV coached two Art Ross Winners, a 41 goal second line centre, consistently had one of the highest scoring defense corps in the league, had the best powerplay in the NHL in the last 15 years in 2011 to go along with finsihing first in goals for and first in goals against. This while dealing with numerous injuries on the defense that year

I understand it may be time for AV to move on but Booth, Ballard, Hodgson and Grabner aren't the reasons...
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby tantalum » Wed May 15, 2013 12:41 pm

Vader wrote:Grabner got hurt during his first stint with Van. Once healthy, AV gave him ice time on Kesler's line during the regular season, and he did produce 11 points in 20 games before the GM dealt him away. Maybe if Gillis had some foresight, he would have dealt Raymond away and kept younger and cheaper Grabner instead...


Perhaps he did have the foresight given Grabner, you know the guy who was traded, has said on multiple occasions the only reason he is in the NHL is because:

1) he got the double wake up call of being traded and then cut by the Panthers
2) he went to an islanders team that lacked depth, had injuries and they had little choice but to play him for the first 40 games despite his poor play where he figured things out.

Also let's not forget that since the back half of the first year on the Island he has found himself benched and in the pressbox on multiple occasions and had his icetime steadily decreased.


Fun fact of the day....

over the last two seasons Mason Raymond has an 82 game pace of 16 G, 18A for 34 Pts battling and coming off of two serious injuries (shoulder and of course broken back). A healthy Michael Grabner scored at a 24G 11A rate for 35 Pts. There is little between the players in overall play in all honesty. Grabner scores more but is Booth-like with his inability to give the puck to teammates. They are both primarily perimeter players.
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby SKYO » Wed May 15, 2013 12:47 pm

iirc Grabner played a helluva good series vs the Blackhawks, aggressive on the puck, fast and even the hawks fans took notice of his good play.

That combined with hardworking offseasons for Grabner and some flashes of offensive sparks is why I always liked his him in his short tenure with the Canucks.
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby SKYO » Wed May 15, 2013 1:19 pm

Safe to say Ballard will be a compliance buy out if MG can't trade him for scraps at the draft.

Although I could see a team throw a 3rd rounder for him if they are in a MG situation, a team in dire need for a dman that could play on the 2nd pairing and are worried a bit about the unpredictable UFA season for dmen, securing Ballard for a 3rd is within reason imesho.

MG will exhaust all trade/ufa options to get an upgrade on Booth first foremost, if unsuccessful (doubt it) Booth will get one more year on the team to see if he can create chemistry on the Kesler line.
As Booth never meshed well with the Sedins because he can't play well on the cycle. He is more like RK, barreling straight to the net and popping off shots hoping for rebounds to pounce on.

Whereas the Sedins are more like the Detroit Redwings, systematic & tactically skilled, supreme chess like masters of the NHL play and puck control ie the complete opposite of David Booth.
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby vic » Wed May 15, 2013 3:50 pm

Vader wrote:If you exclude his fluke 60 point season 5 years ago, Booth has historically scored at a 40 point clip with FLA and a 40 point clip with Van. In the words of Number 44, it is what it is


Yeah, it would suck to have a 40 point guy in the lineup. Lets get rid of him because he's a shit player. 40 point guys are a dime a dozen in this league.


Vader wrote:Ballard is just plain overrated. You know why Ballard didn't dress in the playoffs? Because his GM wanted to keep him healthy so he could be bought out in the summer.


Is that the same reason he WAS dressed in the final two regular season games and only missed one (back injury) of the last 10 games of the regular season? Because he GM thought there is no chance of injury in the regular season?


Vader wrote:Hodgson scored well in limited ice time behind Kesler and Sedin as a rookie. AV managed his minutes very well. And besides, what was AV to do, reduce the Sedin's ice time? And, obviously he would have a career year this year- he's only played two years!


Took AV no time to promote Roy to the 2nd line and try Kesler on the wing - IIRC in games 2 & 4 of the playoffs when Roy was a center for Kelser, the teams played their best 2 games of the season. Hodgson was never given that opportunity. Instead it was 1 mistake and on the bench or 4th line for the rest of the game. Shit, no wonder he hated it here.

Vader wrote:Grabner got hurt during his first stint with Van. Once healthy, AV gave him ice time on Kesler's line during the regular season, and he did produce 11 points in 20 games before the GM dealt him away. Maybe if Gillis had some foresight, he would have dealt Raymond away and kept younger and cheaper Grabner instead...


I could be wrong, but I'm sure a GM of a team talks to a coach prior to trading a player, especially a young player who has shown promise (as you put it, a point every two games).

Vader wrote:You also fail to mention how AV coached two Art Ross Winners, a 41 goal second line centre, consistently had one of the highest scoring defense corps in the league, had the best powerplay in the NHL in the last 15 years in 2011 to go along with finsihing first in goals for and first in goals against. This while dealing with numerous injuries on the defense that year


Two art ross winners and a 41 goal 2nd line center who were given a chance to succeed when they were young players just entering the league. This is what set them up for success in the future. Defense, I'll give you, AV has done a great job with Bieksa, Edler, and Tanev.

Vader wrote:I understand it may be time for AV to move on but Booth, Ballard, Hodgson and Grabner aren't the reasons...


Never said any of those players were the reasons, I put the blame on AV for not using his players effectivley and for making errors in judgment time after time in the postseason.

AV's done a great job, but his job was done a couple of years ago.
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby Lancer » Wed May 15, 2013 5:42 pm

Keep Booth. The blueline has enough lefties, even if Ballard could do better under a new coach. When healthy Booth can motor and get in on the forecheck with more authority than a guy like Raymond. As for his hockey IQ and inability to feed linemates, etc etc, I think that can be coached out.

Ideally, you'd see both out - Booth makes too much money for what he's brought thus far - but if Aquaman refuses to buy out both, then Keith's gotta go for everyone's sake.

Besides, I don't know what Booth's situation was re: his injury, so he may not be healthy enough to be bought out if I understand the rules correctly.
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby FAN » Thu May 16, 2013 3:18 am

Vader wrote:Hodgson scored well in limited ice time behind Kesler and Sedin as a rookie. AV managed his minutes very well. And besides, what was AV to do, reduce the Sedin's ice time? And, obviously he would have a career year this year- he's only played two years!

Grabner got hurt during his first stint with Van. Once healthy, AV gave him ice time on Kesler's line during the regular season, and he did produce 11 points in 20 games before the GM dealt him away. Maybe if Gillis had some foresight, he would have dealt Raymond away and kept younger and cheaper Grabner instead...

Ya AV was always "managing" the minutes of young offensive players who needed to get better defensively. That's why the team can't score. AV will always take a veteran guy with 20 goal 40 point potential who is reliable defensively to a guy with 30 goal 60 point potential who makes the type of defensive mistakes young players make. So don't misconstrue the facts here, we've all watched how AV treated Hodgson, Grabner, and Kassian. Don't make it sound like AV didn't jerk those guys around. AV was never comfortable playing Hodgson and you know how AV rewarded Grabner for scoring a hat trick the previous night? He didn't. Grabner played less shifts and played less minutes the rest of the way. That's the thing with AV. A top prospect shows what he's capable of offensively and they get parked on the bench or demoted to the 4th line if they don't produce the next game or two. How long did it take for Kassian to get demoted off Sedins' line after his quick start? Like one game?

I can understand someone defending AV for trying to win hockey games and thus not playing the kids. But you can't at the same time argue that AV was right in not cutting Sedins' and Kesler's minutes when it is Hodgson who is producing. Besides, there are ways to reward a guy with more ice time. You don't see San Jose haven't a problem developing Couture despite having Thornton, Marleau, and Pavelski there. Even Crawford ultimately let the Sedins play more than the WCE when it was apparent that the Sedins were the team's best line and it's not like the Sedins were Crawford's favourites. Seriously. I don't remember a Canucks coach who pulled the kind of shit AV has pulled. Maybe Keenan but he was known for that.
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby dbr » Thu May 16, 2013 6:51 am

FAN wrote:Ya AV was always "managing" the minutes of young offensive players who needed to get better defensively.


Imagine that, a head coach "managing" minutes. The nerve!

That's why the team can't score.


As pointed out a guy who went elsewhere and ended up on a team without enough depth to bench him when he's awful (Grabner) still produces at roughly the same rate as a guy who succeeded here (Raymond) and gets minutes on a "can't score" team with a "can't score" philosophy.

AV will always take a veteran guy with 20 goal 40 point potential who is reliable defensively to a guy with 30 goal 60 point potential who makes the type of defensive mistakes young players make.


Some young players eventually stop making those mistakes.. but it probably takes extraordinary commitment on their part if they're never held accountable for them.

Look at Cody Hodgson, he delivered on all that offensive promise this season - sometimes - and still came out with a worse +/- at even strength than almost anyone on his team, almost anyone on the Canucks and one of the worst rates of being scored against in the league.

I see those numbers and I am glad the Canucks didn't stake their season on Hodgson being able to win big matchups - in the end our result wasn't much better but, the outcome with Hodgson as a top line player was predictable.

So don't misconstrue the facts here, we've all watched how AV treated Hodgson, Grabner, and Kassian. Don't make it sound like AV didn't jerk those guys around.


I don't really disagree with this. I guess philosophically the idea is that young players had better take their lumps (confidence-wise) and get over it, then play the way they need to in order to succeed at the highest level - those who can't or don't probably aren't worth much hand-wringing over.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with it, but whatever.

AV was never comfortable playing Hodgson and you know how AV rewarded Grabner for scoring a hat trick the previous night? He didn't. Grabner played less shifts and played less minutes the rest of the way. That's the thing with AV. A top prospect shows what he's capable of offensively and they get parked on the bench or demoted to the 4th line if they don't produce the next game or two. How long did it take for Kassian to get demoted off Sedins' line after his quick start? Like one game?


AV has always maintained that he is about the process and not necessarily the short term results. We've seen it numerous times over the years, and Grabner's hat trick is no exception - Kyle Wellwood was productive in his first few games with the team prior to being waived, if I recall Sergei Shirokov was the same (and never made it back).

Now that the larger scale results are no longer pointing in AV's favour it's pretty clear it's time to try a new coach, but for a long time you couldn't really argue with his results.

I can understand someone defending AV for trying to win hockey games and thus not playing the kids. But you can't at the same time argue that AV was right in not cutting Sedins' and Kesler's minutes when it is Hodgson who is producing. Besides, there are ways to reward a guy with more ice time. You don't see San Jose haven't a problem developing Couture despite having Thornton, Marleau, and Pavelski there.


San Jose likes having numerous centers distributed through their lineup though, and frankly I'd suggest that Couture is a poor example because the Canucks haven't had a young forward as talented as that since the Sedins arrived here.

We'll never get the chance to find out, but it would be interesting to see what AV might have done with a legitimate blue chip forward prospect, given the chance.
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby black ace » Thu May 16, 2013 8:05 am

I would buy out Ballard for sure. I dont see why a team would trade for him and his big contract when they could get him for free on a smaller contract when he becomes UFA after the buyout.

Booth I would likely keep if we can fit him under the cap. Yes his contract is too big but injuries have hampered him the last couple of years and when healthy he almost brings what we need..Size,speed etc.

Plus if we only use 1 buy out we can keep the other for the following year just in case.
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby Jovocop » Thu May 16, 2013 9:42 am

black ace wrote:I would buy out Ballard for sure. I dont see why a team would trade for him and his big contract when they could get him for free on a smaller contract when he becomes UFA after the buyout.


However, Ballard can choose where he wants to go if he is an UFA. Teams that have cap rooms but not likely to attract any free agents (Oilers, Blue Jackets, Islanders, Phoenix) would likely trade for players like Ballard if the asking price is right.
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby FAN » Thu May 16, 2013 11:39 am

dbr wrote:As pointed out a guy who went elsewhere and ended up on a team without enough depth to bench him when he's awful (Grabner) still produces at roughly the same rate as a guy who succeeded here (Raymond) and gets minutes on a "can't score" team with a "can't score" philosophy.

Roughly the same rate? Since Grabner has been traded, Grabner has scored 34, 20, and 16. Raymond has scored 15, 10, 10. You average things over 82 games and Grabner has scored at around a 30 goal pace twice and Raymond has scored at around a 20 goal pace ZERO TIMES! I don't care if the point totals are around the same, Raymond is no playmaker. I'll take Grabner's extra 10 goals a season. For what it's worth, Grabner plays with lesser quality linemates than Raymond does.

dbr wrote:Some young players eventually stop making those mistakes.. but it probably takes extraordinary commitment on their part if they're never held accountable for them.

Many young players stop making rookie mistakes when they have enough games under their belts without "being held accountable" the way AV does.

dbr wrote:I see those numbers and I am glad the Canucks didn't stake their season on Hodgson being able to win big matchups - in the end our result wasn't much better but, the outcome with Hodgson as a top line player was predictable.

When Hodgson was here, he was not expected to win big matchups nor was he expected to be a top line player. The mistakes guys like Grabner, Hodgson, and Kassian made didn't really cost the team. No reason to bench them for scrubs.

dbr wrote:I don't really disagree with this. I guess philosophically the idea is that young players had better take their lumps (confidence-wise) and get over it, then play the way they need to in order to succeed at the highest level - those who can't or don't probably aren't worth much hand-wringing over.

Right. Didn't Sedins take their lumps so to speak? I'm just saying there are better ways to teach a young player. Make them a healthy scratch for a game. Bench them for making mistakes. But don't bury them on the 4th line and give them a shift or two with the top line.

dbr wrote:AV has always maintained that he is about the process and not necessarily the short term results. We've seen it numerous times over the years, and Grabner's hat trick is no exception - Kyle Wellwood was productive in his first few games with the team prior to being waived, if I recall Sergei Shirokov was the same (and never made it back).

Now that the larger scale results are no longer pointing in AV's favour it's pretty clear it's time to try a new coach, but for a long time you couldn't really argue with his results.

What was the process? What results? Our top forward prospects failed to develop under AV and it wasn't because of merit.

dbr wrote:San Jose likes having numerous centers distributed through their lineup though, and frankly I'd suggest that Couture is a poor example because the Canucks haven't had a young forward as talented as that since the Sedins arrived here.

We'll never get the chance to find out, but it would be interesting to see what AV might have done with a legitimate blue chip forward prospect, given the chance.

I would argue that Hodgson was very much a blue-chip forward prospect.
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby black ace » Thu May 16, 2013 11:47 am

Jovocop wrote:
black ace wrote:I would buy out Ballard for sure. I dont see why a team would trade for him and his big contract when they could get him for free on a smaller contract when he becomes UFA after the buyout.


However, Ballard can choose where he wants to go if he is an UFA. Teams that have cap rooms but not likely to attract any free agents (Oilers, Blue Jackets, Islanders, Phoenix) would likely trade for players like Ballard if the asking price is right.



True but most those teams dont want to overpay a defenceman around 2 million dollars. Even if you THINK he will play better elsewhere thats a big gamble for low revenue teams. His contract was deemed to be bad in FLA 3 years ago thats why Tallon traded him.
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Re: Booth or Ballard? Who Would You Keep With A New Coach?

Postby tantalum » Thu May 16, 2013 11:47 am

FAN wrote:I would argue that Hodgson was very much a blue-chip forward prospect.


Sure. Too bad for all those cow chips that advise him.
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