Gills and Vigneault

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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Aaronp18 » Sun May 12, 2013 10:21 pm

What you guys are forgetting is that for the first 7 games Kassian had an extra step on many of the NHL vets due to the time he played in the AHL.

We saw this all over the league, young guns and guys that played during the lockout were a huge step ahead of the rest. It took about 10 games and this step awas gone and that's about when the Oilers fell off the planet and guys like Kassian looked like they were stuck in mud.

Zack's time and space disappeared and he look frustrated and lost. He was demoted for good reason.

However, I do feel he should have been given a chance back up with the Sedins later in the year to even out the lineup, or at the very least some serious time with Kelser in the hopes of solidifying a true second line. Especially once the division was wrapped up to get ready for the playoffs.

Anyways, next year it's going to be his spot to lose again in the top 6. He has another offseason of REAL NHL level training to get faster, more explosive and increase his endurance. I like his game and I think he can be a huge part of the revamp we see from this team in the next couple years.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Topper » Mon May 13, 2013 7:34 am

Blob is also forgetting that Burrows was subbing at 2nd line centre/wing those games and got his spot back along with Zach's demotion, when Kesler returned.

Butt why let facts get in the way......
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby tantalum » Mon May 13, 2013 7:39 am

On Saad being put in a position to succeed...

It is certainly true and not only was he put in that position he was kept in that position despite only 3 points in his first 18 games. He then had 24 his next 30.

I think that when AV is let go (and I will be disappointed if he remains) that the major thing Gillis will point to is AV not putting the younger players in positions where they could succeed. And perhaps some other players not young will be thrown into that mix. While I understand that AV wants his forwards to be responsible defensively and I think that it is imperative that they are, AV is too quick to make changes after a mistake or two. Or in the case of young players when they maybe lose focus and have a questionable effort. Maybe it's simply that he has one way to develop young guys and that is tough love. It worked well for guys like Burrows and Hansen but may not work so well for other players.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby FAN » Mon May 13, 2013 8:00 am

RoyalDude wrote:The Hawks are getting great contributions in the playoffs from

Saad - Drafted 2011 (2nd round)
Shaw - Drafted 2011 (5th round)
Kruger - Drafted 2009

Great year for the Blackhawks drafting in 2011, they drafted McNeill (mid first round) and Danault (late first round) and Clendening (2nd round) that year as well.

Would you seriously be happy with Gillis' draft record if he was responsible for the Hawks' draft from 2008-2012? I bet you would be all over Gillis for picking Beach, Olsen, Hayes, and McNeil in the first round and wasting second round picks on guys like Rensfeldt, Simpson, and Holl etc. It's simply too early to tell whether McNeil and Danault are good picks, but I believe most Hawks fans have tempered their expectations of McNeil and expect him to be an average 2nd line center or 3rd line shutdown center. It's a great year when you have 2 first round picks, 2 seconds, and 2 thirds though.

RoyalDude wrote:Again, I just love how everyone chooses to ignore Kassian's faults and completely blame AV for his struggles. If AV hated the kids why does he give Corrado and Tanev big minutes. Kassian has serious issues with his game which is why he was parked down in the minors in the Buffalo system. His issues that we are seeing are exactly the same criticisms he received playing in the OHL. This is nothing new, AV did not all of a sudden ruin Kassian. Kassian has many weaknesses to his game.

AV is better at developing defenseman than forwards. In fact, AV has slowed down the development of many forwards on the Vancouver Canucks. A lot of coaches provide stable linemates for young forwards. While Crow didn't trust young defensemen as much as AV, Crow was really good at developing forwards. Remember when Morrison, Cooke, and Schaefer broke in with the Canucks on what was called the kid line? Remember when Crow would throw the Sedins out there on the 2nd unit PP even when most fans felt they didn't deserve it? Remember when Crow would throw Kesler out there on the PK regardless of how many times he threw the puck over the class to draw a delay of game penalty? Kesler had a consistent linemate in Burrows and consistent ice time. The Sedins had a consistent linemate in Klatt and consistent ice time. Chances are, Crow would have had Hodgson and Kassian playing steady minutes with regular linemates. Crow would have never parked Hodgson and Kassian on the 4th line and then throw them out there for a shift or two with Sedins or Kesler. If Crow was to experiment, they would be given at least a full game unless Crow recognized early on it wasn't going to work.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby sagebrush » Mon May 13, 2013 8:49 am

There's a good article at Nucksmisconduct on Gillis' activities since coming to the Canucks.

Hiring, firing, picks, trades, player contract transactions. It's all there, except the bottom line statement.
It's crunch time for Gillis.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Mon May 13, 2013 9:19 am

Topper wrote:Blob is also forgetting that Burrows was subbing at 2nd line centre/wing those games and got his spot back along with Zach's demotion, when Kesler returned.

Butt why let facts get in the way......



Blob didn't forget . Blob was merely trying to understand why a coach would take the leading goal scorer out of the top 2 lines and bury his ass on the 4th line. The team has had trouble scoring for a year and a half and this is the answer. It was a stupid move by a coach who seems to have three or four standards around here. Kassian got a game or two with Kesler and then he played most of the rest of the year on the 4th line with garbage linemates.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Topper » Mon May 13, 2013 9:39 am

What's the problem? Would you be pissed at Burrows loosing his spot on the top line because he's an injury replacement on a lower line?
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby tantalum » Mon May 13, 2013 9:44 am

Topper wrote:What's the problem? Would you be pissed at Burrows loosing his spot on the top line because he's an injury replacement on a lower line?


The difference is of course the fact that Burrows wouldn't be dropping down below the second line, would still receive top PK time and still have his chance on the PP (a role that I think he is simply not very good in). He wouldn't be losing icetime and would still have good linemates.

I agree with Blob that Kassian was put with garbage linemates far too early and to expect a primary playmaking guy to succeed in that role passing to Dale Weise isn't the best use of the asset.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Mon May 13, 2013 9:44 am

I have no problem if AV wanted to plug Burrows back with the twins, though it is getting a tad stale. My beef with AV is that Kassian was leading the team in goals and he got about 4 periods with Kesler made a blunder or two and got buried on the 4th line. There is no reason he couldn't have given the kid 7 - 8 games with Kesler ( yeah he got hurt after 6 games) and given him some opportunities with better players . Instead he saddled him with Sestito, Weise, Ebbett and Pinnizotto for linemates.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Topper » Mon May 13, 2013 10:06 am

Ahhhh yes, the "kid needs to develop with quality linemates" crowd chirps in. Same folks who were fooled by the pump and dump.

Zach was a headcase mess when he was shipped down for conditioning/discipline. seems to get caught up worrying about fucking up more than relaxing and playing the game. Playoffs he was looking like Matt Cooke with his late hits taking himself out of the game.

Maturity is what is most lacking from his game.

Folks can't get it through their skulls. Earn your stripes by playing sound defence. Ice time will follow.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby tantalum » Mon May 13, 2013 11:07 am

Topper wrote:Ahhhh yes, the "kid needs to develop with quality linemates" crowd chirps in. Same folks who were fooled by the pump and dump.

Zach was a headcase mess when he was shipped down for conditioning/discipline. seems to get caught up worrying about fucking up more than relaxing and playing the game. Playoffs he was looking like Matt Cooke with his late hits taking himself out of the game.

Maturity is what is most lacking from his game.

Folks can't get it through their skulls. Earn your stripes by playing sound defence. Ice time will follow.


I'm far from the quality linemate argument guy.

I also don't disagree with needing to learn how to play defense to get icetime (in fact I believe I said just that). However, there is needing to learn and being provided the opportunity to learn. At times I do feel as though AV is quick to pull the plug on a kid because of mistakes. You said youself that he is worried about messing up more than just playing the game...could that not be an unwanted side effect of a coach who kills your icetime when you have a tough game? On the flip side a kid under AV is also quick to come out of the doghouse when they learn those things under AV (see Hansen for instance). It's tough when it comes to coaching...some kids respond well to the quick reduction in icetime (like Burrows and Hansen) while others don't. But as a coach you want to be consistent and not "play favourites". So AV is certainly consistent IMO, but is his method of development the best for the organization or this crop of prospects. It's almost a philosophical issue.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby FAN » Tue May 14, 2013 3:13 am

tantalum wrote:
Topper wrote:Ahhhh yes, the "kid needs to develop with quality linemates" crowd chirps in. Same folks who were fooled by the pump and dump.

Zach was a headcase mess when he was shipped down for conditioning/discipline. seems to get caught up worrying about fucking up more than relaxing and playing the game. Playoffs he was looking like Matt Cooke with his late hits taking himself out of the game.

Maturity is what is most lacking from his game.

Folks can't get it through their skulls. Earn your stripes by playing sound defence. Ice time will follow.


I'm far from the quality linemate argument guy.

I also don't disagree with needing to learn how to play defense to get icetime (in fact I believe I said just that). However, there is needing to learn and being provided the opportunity to learn. At times I do feel as though AV is quick to pull the plug on a kid because of mistakes. You said youself that he is worried about messing up more than just playing the game...could that not be an unwanted side effect of a coach who kills your icetime when you have a tough game? On the flip side a kid under AV is also quick to come out of the doghouse when they learn those things under AV (see Hansen for instance). It's tough when it comes to coaching...some kids respond well to the quick reduction in icetime (like Burrows and Hansen) while others don't. But as a coach you want to be consistent and not "play favourites". So AV is certainly consistent IMO, but is his method of development the best for the organization or this crop of prospects. It's almost a philosophical issue.

Good points Tant. If it's about earning ice time then why not give him consistent minutes besides Lapierre and if he plays well promote him. Don't shuffle the kid up and down the lineup not just between games but in between shifts. And ya I too feel AV is quick to pull the plug on a kid because of mistakes. Kids are going to make mistakes. Kassian is a guy that probably needs the Keenan (I'll play the hell out of you let's see how you deal) treatment. When you have a guy that the team considers a blue-chip prospect you do everything you can to develop him into the player the GM sees in him.

As for coming out of AV's dog house, I don't think anyone does it quickly. Hansen certainly did not get out of AV's dog house quickly. I think this was the first year AV legitimately gave Hansen a chance to play more of an offensive role and more minutes than Raymond and Hansen has been outperforming Raymond for a few years now.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby BingoTough » Tue May 14, 2013 5:35 am

tantalum wrote: Maybe it's simply that he has one way to develop young guys and that is tough love. It worked well for guys like Burrows and Hansen but may not work so well for other players.


There is far more currency in positive feedback than negative. People become afraid of making mistakes if you give them too much negative feedback. This leads to people avoiding taking risks.

If you don't take risks you don't ever make mistakes.

BUT if you don't make mistakes you don't have as many opportunities to learn and get better.

Edit: Just to be clear, not arguing with your post, just making an observation about AV.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby tantalum » Tue May 14, 2013 6:53 am

The reason I say it's a bit of a philosophical question is because a coach and organization will often look at the team and decide where they are in the progression to a cup. The closer to be a true challenger for the prize often results in less tolerance and patience with the kids. At the bottom of the mountain the kids will often get to play. AV didn't have patience perhaps because he's trying to win a cup/go deep in the playoffs to save his job. Gillis I think will comment on needing a more balanced approach when AV is likely removed. He'll say things like "I think we need to look at playing some kids and putting up with the lack of focus or mistakes so that they are contributing by seasons end. This may cost us some points in the standings if the veterans don't pick up the slack and help the kids along" Obviously there is a limit to the tolerance but I expect we are going to see longer looks at kids this upcoming season.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Tciso » Tue May 14, 2013 9:38 am

Topper wrote:Folks can't get it through their skulls. Earn your stripes by playing sound defence. Ice time will follow.


My beef with AV regarding sound defense is that he changes lines up wayyyy too much at the bottom 6. How can Kassian expect to play solid defense when he gets very few shifts with the same 2 linemates, and never the same defense pairing? AV never gives his bottom 6 the ice time to gel as a line, and earn each other's trust, and learn each other's style.
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