Gills and Vigneault

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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Sat May 11, 2013 10:25 am

tantalum wrote: We can expect to see a selection of Kassian, Tanev, Corrado, Jensen, Gaunce, Schroeder making that contribution.


The jury is still out. A little early to be calling them successful picks
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Sat May 11, 2013 2:29 pm

RoyalDude wrote:I'm not the one who ranks Gillis drafting over the last 5 years as the worst in the NHL


If you're not the one then who is ?? Speak up man.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby tantalum » Sat May 11, 2013 3:57 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
tantalum wrote: We can expect to see a selection of Kassian, Tanev, Corrado, Jensen, Gaunce, Schroeder making that contribution.


The jury is still out. A little early to be calling them successful picks


Well no shit given they are all 23 and younger. Give your head a shake. You go on and on and on and on about how bad Gillis is at drafting, while willfully ignoring Tanev because he was a signed free agent, and not acknowledging the guys he has drafted are maximum 23 years old! This is exactly when you expect to see his picks starting to become regulars in the lineup and low and behold they are. Just because they take a bit longer than prospects from a team that were drafted in the top 15 (3 of them on the Sens) doesn't mean they were bad picks.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Sat May 11, 2013 5:25 pm

tantalum wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:
tantalum wrote: We can expect to see a selection of Kassian, Tanev, Corrado, Jensen, Gaunce, Schroeder making that contribution.


The jury is still out. A little early to be calling them successful picks


Well no shit given they are all 23 and younger. Give your head a shake. You go on and on and on and on about how bad Gillis is at drafting, while willfully ignoring Tanev because he was a signed free agent, and not acknowledging the guys he has drafted are maximum 23 years old! This is exactly when you expect to see his picks starting to become regulars in the lineup and low and behold they are. Just because they take a bit longer than prospects from a team that were drafted in the top 15 (3 of them on the Sens) doesn't mean they were bad picks.


Fine, lets subtract the three top 15 Senators draft pick over the last 5 drafts and Gillis is Top 15 (Hodgson) and now we have Senators 4 vs Gillis 1 (Corrado).

The bottom line is, we should be seeing some players from Gillis first two drafts playing full time with the club. We have Kassian for Hodgson, Schroeder is up and down and that is it. Rodin and Sauve are bums. Connauton is gone. I can't even remember who the other post 1st round picks we have from Gillis first two drafts other than they ain't playing here.

Let us not forget how Gillis did not have a pick until the 4th round in the 2010 Draft, all in the name of Ballard and Bernier and I forget what else.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby FAN » Sun May 12, 2013 5:28 am

RoyalDude wrote:Fine, lets subtract the three top 15 Senators draft pick over the last 5 drafts and Gillis is Top 15 (Hodgson) and now we have Senators 4 vs Gillis 1 (Corrado).

The bottom line is, we should be seeing some players from Gillis first two drafts playing full time with the club. We have Kassian for Hodgson, Schroeder is up and down and that is it. Rodin and Sauve are bums. Connauton is gone. I can't even remember who the other post 1st round picks we have from Gillis first two drafts other than they ain't playing here.

You know, I think that apart from the John Muckler years, the Senators have consistently been one of the better drafting teams in the league. Admitting that the Senators have simply been better at drafting and developing players than the Vancouver Canucks is really not a slight against Gillis.

I think that when trying to evaluate Gillis' drafting, I think it's fairer to start with the 2009 draft and see if there is a trend of improvement as I don't think Gillis had time to implement the changes he wanted. It's also important to note that Gillis has repositioned some of his scouts a bit since last summer and have given Eric Crawford greater involvement (I'm just hoping Crawford is better at scouting amateur players than the Panthers).

Anyhow... yes the Canucks have not gotten much in the way of contribution from Gillis' draft picks, but philosophically, Gillis is a follower of Ken Holland's school of overcooking prospects in the minors. Speaking of Holland, Detroit doesn't have a full-time player from those draft years either. And while you seem to evaluate drafts based on a team's ability to find talent in later rounds, I'm perfectly fine if Gillis gets a good player out of his first round picks and nothing else. Too many terrible first round picks over the years.

I am hopeful that the 2009 draft is coming along. Schroeder might not have been the best pick, and I'm sure that given Gillis' current approach, he would have bypassed Schroeder for a bigger player, but I think Schroeder is going to be an NHL player. I don't think he's a bust or going to be one. As for Rodin, I am leaning towards calling him a bust... a real headscratcher given his skating and offensive skills. Beyond those two, we knew the other picks would take time. Connauton was the huge surprise but he hasn't been able to take the next step. I have no idea how good Price is, but the Canucks seem pretty high on Andersson and Cannatta.

Gillis was all about taking long-term projects in hopes of landing a home run given the Canucks were without picks until the 4th round. I can be a real homer when it comes to prospects, but I still like the McNally, Andersson, and Friesen picks. The 2011 draft looks alright. I like the Jensen pick and at worst he's a bottom 6 player. I think Honzik and Grenier are busts. I don't think Labate will amount to anything. I'm very surprised by Blomstrand coming here. I thought he would be another Swede we never see (why couldn't Burke/Nonis get Nicklas Danielsson here?). Corrado is going to be a player and Gillis likes Tommernes apparently. The 2012 draft is very similar. Guance looks like a sure-fire NHL player. I didn't exactly love the Mallet pick but I got on board as Mallet seems ready-made for the NHL 4th line. He's like a more talented version of Volpatti. Hard not to like a prospect like him. Between Mallet and Grenier, I like Mallet a whole lot more. After those two, I think the only pick I liked at the time was Beattie. Of note, Gillis did sign Evan McEneny, who looking like a nice pickup right now.

One thing about Gillis is that he doesn't rush his prospects. That's why we didn't see Guance playing 3rd line on the Canucks this season and flipping pucks over the glass when killing penalties the way Kesler did. That's why we didn't see Schroeder play in the NHL where he would play 10-12 minutes a game with 2 of those minutes being on the PP. But yes, the Canucks need to start getting contributions from their draft picks and I think the team took a small step forward this season when Schroeder and Corrado showed us they were on the right track. Heck, under Nonis, had Luc Bourdon (RIP) lived, he would have been a full-time player 4 years after he was drafted. Forward wise, Raymond made the Canucks 3 years after he was drafted but he was a older. Hansen took 4. Schroeder is actually on track.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Sun May 12, 2013 8:58 am

The Hawks are getting great contributions in the playoffs from

Saad - Drafted 2011 (2nd round)
Shaw - Drafted 2011 (5th round)
Kruger - Drafted 2009

Great year for the Blackhawks drafting in 2011, they drafted McNeill (mid first round) and Danault (late first round) and Clendening (2nd round) that year as well.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Vpete » Sun May 12, 2013 11:01 am

RoyalDude wrote:The Hawks are getting great contributions in the playoffs from

Saad - Drafted 2011 (2nd round)
Shaw - Drafted 2011 (5th round)
Kruger - Drafted 2009

Great year for the Blackhawks drafting in 2011, they drafted McNeill (mid first round) and Danault (late first round) and Clendening (2nd round) that year as well.


Yeah they are doing well but they could as just have easily taken the wrong guys. only 161 NHL games have been played by players drafted out of the first round and that is from 6 players. So they got their Datsyuk and Lidstrom luck (no necessarily players of that calibre)

Also calling out Sauve is a bit unfair- getting hit by a car really messed up his chance at success a few years ago if any chance.

GIllis has had 5 years and frankly picking out a team or two to compare him too is useless, compare him to the league and if he's getting outsmarted at the draft by more than 14 teams with equal position and number of picks- then there is reason to criticize.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby tantalum » Sun May 12, 2013 2:36 pm

RoyalDude wrote:Fine, lets subtract the three top 15 Senators draft pick over the last 5 drafts and Gillis is Top 15 (Hodgson) and now we have Senators 4 vs Gillis 1 (Corrado).

The bottom line is, we should be seeing some players from Gillis first two drafts playing full time with the club. We have Kassian for Hodgson, Schroeder is up and down and that is it. Rodin and Sauve are bums. Connauton is gone. I can't even remember who the other post 1st round picks we have from Gillis first two drafts other than they ain't playing here.




Hmm look at that you once again don't include Tanev just because he wasn't picked at the draft table but signed as a free agent but still a prospect just the same.

Oh and look at that you also forgot Schroeder.

Well geez now it's 4-3 Sens by that accounting. Imagine that. You just might be talking out of your ass yet again.

Let us not forget how Gillis did not have a pick until the 4th round in the 2010 Draft, all in the name of Ballard and Bernier and I forget what else.


Given you are trying to argue about how bad Gillis is at identifying NHL caliber prospects giving him less draft picks to work from doesn't really help your argument. Sure complain about the dealing of those picks but that isn't your argument at the moment.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Meds » Sun May 12, 2013 4:27 pm

RoyalDude wrote:The Hawks are getting great contributions in the playoffs from

Saad - Drafted 2011 (2nd round)
Shaw - Drafted 2011 (5th round)
Kruger - Drafted 2009

Great year for the Blackhawks drafting in 2011, they drafted McNeill (mid first round) and Danault (late first round) and Clendening (2nd round) that year as well.


The only one of those guys averaging more than 15 minutes per game is Saad. And he plays on a line with two of Kane, Toews, Hossa, and Sharp. Shaw see's some PP time, so he's playing with the top guys in those cases, and when he's not he has Bickell and Stalberg on either side of him. Kruger kills penalties, but judging by the minutes he either goes on in relief or the Hawks don't get many penalties.

I'd be willing to be that Vigneault would give them less minutes, and then their production would drop, and he would likely have them playing on the 3rd and 4th line. Put Saad on our third or fourth line and suddenly he's not going to be producing like he did, and suddenly he's going back to the AHL because Vigneault can't use him.

Saad was put in a place where he could succeed. He was playing with some of the top forwards in the NHL, and he made the most of it. Kassian got that chance during the first 7 games of the season.....he scored 5 goals and was a total beast. Vigneault then moved Kassian down to the 3rd line because he felt that Burrows needed to be with the Sedins. Saad was given the benefit of the doubt too....he had zero points in his first 8 games. Yet he was still given the opportunity to succeed.....and he finally did. These are 3 players who actually make my case for why I think Vigneault is a poor coach when it comes to managing players and setting young players up to develop and reach their potential.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Sun May 12, 2013 7:05 pm

Meds wrote:
The only one of those guys averaging more than 15 minutes per game is Saad. And he plays on a line with two of Kane, Toews, Hossa, and Sharp. Shaw see's some PP time, so he's playing with the top guys in those cases, and when he's not he has Bickell and Stalberg on either side of him. Kruger kills penalties, but judging by the minutes he either goes on in relief or the Hawks don't get many penalties.

I'd be willing to be that Vigneault would give them less minutes, and then their production would drop, and he would likely have them playing on the 3rd and 4th line. Put Saad on our third or fourth line and suddenly he's not going to be producing like he did, and suddenly he's going back to the AHL because Vigneault can't use him.

Saad was put in a place where he could succeed. He was playing with some of the top forwards in the NHL, and he made the most of it. Kassian got that chance during the first 7 games of the season.....he scored 5 goals and was a total beast. Vigneault then moved Kassian down to the 3rd line because he felt that Burrows needed to be with the Sedins. Saad was given the benefit of the doubt too....he had zero points in his first 8 games. Yet he was still given the opportunity to succeed.....and he finally did. These are 3 players who actually make my case for why I think Vigneault is a poor coach when it comes to managing players and setting young players up to develop and reach their potential.


Meds must be the only guy in North America who hasn't noticed the great year that Shaw and Kruger are having. We all know Saad is, but Shaw is actually a very good player along with Kruger.

Again, I just love how everyone chooses to ignore Kassian's faults and completely blame AV for his struggles. If AV hated the kids why does he give Corrado and Tanev big minutes. Kassian has serious issues with his game which is why he was parked down in the minors in the Buffalo system. His issues that we are seeing are exactly the same criticisms he received playing in the OHL. This is nothing new, AV did not all of a sudden ruin Kassian. Kassian has many weaknesses to his game.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Sun May 12, 2013 7:42 pm

Kassian scored 5 goals in 7 games. The team has trouble scoring and he starts out like a house on fire so the coach buries him on the 4th line. Yep that's great coaching there. Hall of fame stuff right there. Of course the kids has flaws in his game. What 22 year old 2nd year pro doesn't ? AV is a shithead for yo-yoing him up and down the lineup and not developing him properly. I hope the asshole is fired this coming week.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Sun May 12, 2013 7:56 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Kassian scored 5 goals in 7 games. The team has trouble scoring and he starts out like a house on fire so the coach buries him on the 4th line. Yep that's great coaching there. Hall of fame stuff right there. Of course the kids has flaws in his game. What 22 year old 2nd year pro doesn't ? AV is a shithead for yo-yoing him up and down the lineup and not developing him properly. I hope the asshole is fired this coming week.



Hey Blobby Beers, I like Kassian. I have him on Chef Boi RD's players to keep and I'm on board with AV's ousting as well. I just have concerns with who the next coach will be, cause I don't see a bull market out there on available quality coaching. Ruff is done, don't want him. Eakins could be another Boucher, Arniel, Don Hay failure. As for Kassian, he has some glaring weaknesses to his game that he needs to fix, but I see the potential there, I also do not blame AV for ruining the kid. Corrado and Tanev are kids as well, and they ain't getting ruined by AV. AV and generally every coach can't stand defensive miscues and fuck ups and weak efforts and disappearing acts in which Kassian can be notorious for. Zach also needs to lose his cutesy game that he likes to try and play and simplify his game. His anticipation leaves a lot to be desired as well. You only get a reaction out of him when it's too late, he seems to be always behind the play. That being said, there is potential there. His career can either go the way of Stojanov/Sandlak/Bernier or Bertuzzi, Lucic. He needs to figure that out.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby paddy » Sun May 12, 2013 7:57 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Kassian scored 5 goals in 7 games. The team has trouble scoring and he starts out like a house on fire so the coach buries him on the 4th line. Yep that's great coaching there. Hall of fame stuff right there. Of course the kids has flaws in his game. What 22 year old 2nd year pro doesn't ? AV is a shithead for yo-yoing him up and down the lineup and not developing him properly. I hope the asshole is fired this coming week.


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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Meds » Sun May 12, 2013 8:53 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
Meds wrote:
The only one of those guys averaging more than 15 minutes per game is Saad. And he plays on a line with two of Kane, Toews, Hossa, and Sharp. Shaw see's some PP time, so he's playing with the top guys in those cases, and when he's not he has Bickell and Stalberg on either side of him. Kruger kills penalties, but judging by the minutes he either goes on in relief or the Hawks don't get many penalties.

I'd be willing to be that Vigneault would give them less minutes, and then their production would drop, and he would likely have them playing on the 3rd and 4th line. Put Saad on our third or fourth line and suddenly he's not going to be producing like he did, and suddenly he's going back to the AHL because Vigneault can't use him.

Saad was put in a place where he could succeed. He was playing with some of the top forwards in the NHL, and he made the most of it. Kassian got that chance during the first 7 games of the season.....he scored 5 goals and was a total beast. Vigneault then moved Kassian down to the 3rd line because he felt that Burrows needed to be with the Sedins. Saad was given the benefit of the doubt too....he had zero points in his first 8 games. Yet he was still given the opportunity to succeed.....and he finally did. These are 3 players who actually make my case for why I think Vigneault is a poor coach when it comes to managing players and setting young players up to develop and reach their potential.


Meds must be the only guy in North America who hasn't noticed the great year that Shaw and Kruger are having. We all know Saad is, but Shaw is actually a very good player along with Kruger.

Again, I just love how everyone chooses to ignore Kassian's faults and completely blame AV for his struggles. If AV hated the kids why does he give Corrado and Tanev big minutes. Kassian has serious issues with his game which is why he was parked down in the minors in the Buffalo system. His issues that we are seeing are exactly the same criticisms he received playing in the OHL. This is nothing new, AV did not all of a sudden ruin Kassian. Kassian has many weaknesses to his game.


Same story for Shaw and Kruger. Not bounced around the lineup. Given a chance to succeed.

Figured I didn't need to spell it out that specifically for you.....one example is usually enough. But whatever.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Meds » Sun May 12, 2013 8:58 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:Kassian scored 5 goals in 7 games. The team has trouble scoring and he starts out like a house on fire so the coach buries him on the 4th line. Yep that's great coaching there. Hall of fame stuff right there. Of course the kids has flaws in his game. What 22 year old 2nd year pro doesn't ? AV is a shithead for yo-yoing him up and down the lineup and not developing him properly. I hope the asshole is fired this coming week.



Hey Blobby Beers, I like Kassian. I have him on Chef Boi RD's players to keep and I'm on board with AV's ousting as well. I just have concerns with who the next coach will be, cause I don't see a bull market out there on available quality coaching. Ruff is done, don't want him. Eakins could be another Boucher, Arniel, Don Hay failure. As for Kassian, he has some glaring weaknesses to his game that he needs to fix, but I see the potential there, I also do not blame AV for ruining the kid. Corrado and Tanev are kids as well, and they ain't getting ruined by AV. AV and generally every coach can't stand defensive miscues and fuck ups and weak efforts and disappearing acts in which Kassian can be notorious for. Zach also needs to lose his cutesy game that he likes to try and play and simplify his game. His anticipation leaves a lot to be desired as well. You only get a reaction out of him when it's too late, he seems to be always behind the play. That being said, there is potential there. His career can either go the way of Stojanov/Sandlak/Bernier or Bertuzzi, Lucic. He needs to figure that out.


Corrado played all of 7 games this year. So if you go by the way Vigneault handled Kassian, Corrado would have been given 10 minutes next game and then a seat in the press box next to Ballard.

Tanev got into the lineup because of injury. Vigneault couldn't demote him or limit him without shortening the bench to 5 defensemen. Tanev also got to stay for two other reasons, one, he's a right handed shot, and two, because AV already had a whipping boy in Ballard.

Kassian didn't play a "cutesy game" in the first 7 games. He just went to the net. Once he was demoted he was the best option to carry the puck and protect it while looking to setup one of the 3rd or 4th line plumbers he was saddled with.
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