So where to we go from here?

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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby Topper » Thu May 09, 2013 10:26 pm

Spock wrote:STEP ONE: FIRE ALAIN VIGNAULT

Anyone who watched the games this season knows one thing: something drastic has to happen. There were far too many lackluster performances from this squad. Too many nights where players just didn't play like they really wanted to win. While it is true that AV has been the winningest coach in Canucks history, this team simply didn't look mentally prepared to win far too often.
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Spock, I have been noting for some time

Topper wrote: Under Crawford, too many post game Naslund interviews started with "I don't know what happened tonight. We came out slow and unprepared." When AV was hired, he very pointedly remarked that would not happen under his reign. Well, guess what, it is happening.

Is it AV, is it the leadership, is it the shortened season? All could be contributing, but as you noted and the organization themselves noted, this goes back to immediately after the Boston win a year ago.

Players admitted that AV lit a fire under their asses between periods in Dallas. Maybe Bowness and Brown need to start shovelling coal to get the boiler going.


and

Topper wrote:Apart from miracles AV is done, the question is, does Gillis walk the plank as well. I still believe AV is a very good coach, but is past his best before date with the lineup. Not too unlike Ruff in Buffalo. Too much responsibility given to the core to right the ship and not enough leadership from the bench. More but kicking from the coach. The opposite end of the spectrum is TO where Carlyle is the only leadership the team has.

Now for Gillis, he has completely misread the league for several years running. The league gives lip service to cracking down and letting skill players play their game, but the reality is, it has never come about outside of the first week of each season. After that you must be bigger and tougher than your opponent because he will hook, hold, interfere and slash you until he gets the puck. It is still better than the ugly clutch and grab days of the 80's and earlier, but it is a far cry from the stated position of the league. Sadly MG bought into that position. Fool me once.......Fool me twice........

With buy out and cap restrictions, there may be a window for rebuild because a lot of teams will be jettisoning players to get below next years cap. Failing that, it is a year before an increasing cap likely kicks in.
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby Todd Bersnoozi » Fri May 10, 2013 2:30 am

Spock wrote:
STEP FOUR: SIGN MORE A$$HOLES

This team is just too nice. In today's NHL, skill is less valued than size and grit. It seems the game is being won in the trenches, not by finesse. Against the Sharks, the Canucks just didnt have the horse to get in the crease and be effective. When there were rebonunds off Niemi (and other goalies for much of the season), there were not enough Canucks ready to pounce on pucks and jam them home. The majority of goals I've seen in this years playoffs seem to be from scrums in front. The Canucks dont have nearly enough scrum lovers on offense.

Agre or disagree, thats fine. This Vulcan has been dealing with his wife's cancer, so has't been on much to post.


My thots are with u and your family.

Yeah, I agree with this point the most. We need more gritty guys. I don't mind if we lose to a better team in the playoffs, but I want them to pay for it. They should be worn down, bruised up, banged up, hurting all over and feeling like they just went through a war. Ever since we lost the final 2 games to the Bs, it seems like the other teams (Bs, kings and sharks) just cake walked all over us. Marleau and Thornton seemed like they felt bad for our guys in the handshake ceremony after we were knocked out. *LOL*

When MG first came here, he said he wanted our team to have more grit. For whatever reason he did kind of go away from it. He did bring in some guys like Bernier, Hornychuk, Glass to address the toughness issue, but they weren't very good, so he has got to be careful to not just pick up any slug. They have to be decent in skating, hockey smarts and skill set. I thot Torres and SOB (even Rome a bit) were some of his better pickups who had a lot of grit, but for whatever reason, he let them move on or traded them.

If the Nucks want to play a more physical brand of hockey, they'll probably need a new coach as well (a Don Cherry type who luvs that kind of style). I noticed that when AV plays his grinders and they get a penalty, he tends to bench them after. After that, our guys are scared to hit cuz they're worried they might get a penalty. Saw that a bit in Weise, LapDawg and Kass in the playoffs this year. I remember Bitz threw a big hit on a guy last year and got a penalty, AV never played him again. *LOL* The tragedy about that series was we need more guys like Bitz to battle vs the bigger Kings, but they were benched or scratched (ie - weise, rome). I recall a similar situation to Alberts as well when he first got here and he played in the playoffs, benched after a big hit from a penalty. Obviously we want our thugs to be disciplined and not take stupid penalties all nite, but if the nucks decide to play that way, we're going to get our fair share of penalties. Whoever is the coach is going to have to let dawgs loose and let them play their game and develop a top notch penalty killing unit to negate some of the penalties.

Speaking of assholes, there's one big bad hombre that I always wanted the Canucks to go after.... Buffy! I'd luv to see him play with the Sedins and let him park his ass in front of the crease for us. He's one guy that I'm willing to pay an arm and a leg for. I'd offer Edler, Schroeder and throw in a 1st round pick if neeed (they can have Booth and Ballard too if they want). :P
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby Arachnid » Fri May 10, 2013 6:14 am

Isn't it obvious...We go where no professional Vancouver hockey team has gone before...we go to a championship!

How the fuck do we get there? Maybe the league stays with the clutch and grab maybe they change in a few years back to skill, who the fuck knows?

MG has to be the real leader for this team. That means stop being the players best friend and making some hard tough decisions. He is not an agent anymore, he's management for christs sake.

Have a stronger vision. That's what the best GMs do. They stick to their guns, they don't just inherit, tweak and accept mediocrity...

Garde la foi Spock.
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby Puck » Fri May 10, 2013 2:02 pm

You have to think coaching has played a large part in the decline of this team. From the 2011 run, who's really gone: Erhoff and Torres? I'd think Garrison replaces Erhoff fairly well, so what's with the drop? Perhaps the biggest difference is the return of Kesler back down to earth. I'm getting an uneasy feeling that we'll never see that Kesler again. Not quite, anyway. At the very least, we need to see some revision in the play up front and the PP. For that, we must look to coaching. Thanks, Alain et al, but it's time to move on.

Incidentally, the re-alignment might be just the thing to get this team to understand what it's going to take to compete for the Cup. Having the soft NW to compete in has not done them any favours.
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby wafflecombine » Fri May 10, 2013 4:28 pm

Wow. Destroy the team, sell everyone, blah, blah, blah.
Reminds me of the kids who enjoyed pulling the wings off flys or grasshoppers.

There are changes to be made but this gleeful anticipation of wanton destruction being advocated by a couple people here is foolish. Hell look at the sharks who just beat us. They made a FEW core moves and really changed the flavour of their team.

Besides that, all our core players that some want gone have NTC clauses... By ask all of them to waive what chance in hell do we a have of attracting other people to the club that already have NTCs or want them in their next contract.

There are changes to be made sure but let's not fool ourselves with the gleeful thoughts of a box labelled dynamite and ACME.
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby CrzyCanuck » Sat May 11, 2013 8:35 am

Spock wrote:STEP ONE: FIRE ALAIN VIGNAULT

Anyone who watched the games this season knows one thing: something drastic has to happen. There were far too many lackluster performances from this squad. Too many nights where players just didn't play like they really wanted to win. While it is true that AV has been the winningest coach in Canucks history, this team simply didn't look mentally prepared to win far too often. Yes - he has to try and win with the players he has - but then why not play a more free-wheeling system if we don't have the big bodies to bang around the opposition? If the coach cannot adapt his system to the players he actually has under contract, then he has to go. Plus - since I truly believe the Canucks have to get younger to get better, and AV is not apparently fond of young forwards, he has to be the change.


The dude should have been gone 2 seasons ago. Year after year his response after the playoff exit has been redundant and plain. And for whatever reason it has been, we were always able to find an excuse for each year's failure. Finally this year we ran out of excuses.

Spock wrote:STEP TWO: PICK A GOALIE - ANY GOALIE - AND TRADE THE OTHER

Luongo would seem to be the obvious choice to try and move - but the number of suitors the Canucks would have for his contract would seem to be few to none - particularly with the Cap dropping. Perhaps the better solution would be to trade Schnieder and get some young talent with size and skill. Regardless - the Canucks can win games (not talking Cups right now) - with either goaltender.


I for one thought that we had the leverage in this double-A goalie situation. And it turned out to be a big mistake.
he thoughts of having two capable goalies to step-in at any time during the season to carry the team was purely naive. Not that Lou or Schneider stunk, the players in front of them were playing uninspired and retarded throughout the year, but the fact that GMMG was not able to pull off a "timely" Luongo trade seems like it's going to hurt the team's overall development. Unless GMMG works off some miracle this summer by acquiring certain young assets for Luongo, this 2-season long drama series was simply ugly.


Spock wrote:
STEP FOUR: SIGN MORE A$$HOLES

This team is just too nice. In today's NHL, skill is less valued than size and grit. It seems the game is being won in the trenches, not by finesse. Against the Sharks, the Canucks just didnt have the horse to get in the crease and be effective. When there were rebonunds off Niemi (and other goalies for much of the season), there were not enough Canucks ready to pounce on pucks and jam them home. The majority of goals I've seen in this years playoffs seem to be from scrums in front. The Canucks dont have nearly enough scrum lovers on offense.


If I recall Doc has been saying this since the first year we got bulldozed by Chicago's Fugly. And again the year we got bullied by Boston's tactics. And again the year L.A punished us with similar punches. And again this year SJ just ran us over. I still remember that at GMMG's inauguration press conference, Gillis made a candid statement addressing his vision and expection for this team: "FAST, BIG, and Skilled". But year after year, failure after failure, we still haven't seen the fast, big, and skilled team he had promised. There have been attempts, but unfortunately most, or all of those attempts resulted in stone-handed sluggish soft big forwards.

Just like Doc has been screaming for the past decade, let's become the ASSHOLE of the league. For once it'll be other teams complaining and whining about our size and physicality, rather than seeing the team and fans whining year after year about the same thing, crying like little girls. [/quote]
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby RoyalDude » Sat May 11, 2013 11:12 am

Becoming the asshole of the league does not work. Fucking lame this. It's about being disciplined, not taking stupid penalties. look at how much better the Sharks are since getting rid of undisciplined hot heads who skate like Dana Murzyn in Clowe and Murray.

It's about getting Bigger, Faster, Younger, North/South hockey unlike the East/West that the slower, older Sedins play. Hitting hard, relentless forechecking, tenacious determination, following the game plan, collapsing around the net with big mobile defenseman.

This whole Hordichuk, Ben Eager, Clowe hockey is fucking useless. Yes, ya need a Chris Neil and mabye a Matt Kassian, but it's more than that, those guys are minor complimentary players. Even though Weise is a punching bag I actually like him, he plays with passion, skates hard and isn't afraid of anyone, seems like a good team guy. Could use one more guy like that who may be a better fighter but he most must be able to play, be disciplined and skate pretty well.
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby RoyalDude » Sat May 11, 2013 11:17 am

Anyhow, so where do we go from here? If Gillis is paying attention the fading interest in this city for the Vancouver Canucks, then serious changes are a must, not the prototypical Gillis tinkerings. The fans here are done with this group, it's stale. He cannot go into next season without giving this city something new to get excited about, a new direction. The Canucks displayed in their series against the Sharks and the Kings last year, that our brand of hockey is the most boring in the league, it's no wonder the demand here is waning.
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Sat May 11, 2013 2:34 pm

Yes a Matt Kassian or Chris Neil is great but you don't need a Ryane Clowe. Seriously ? You lost all credibility with that nonsense. I think you huff gas with the Tootoo tribe in your spare time.
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby RoyalDude » Sun May 12, 2013 9:06 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Yes a Matt Kassian or Chris Neil is great but you don't need a Ryane Clowe. Seriously ? You lost all credibility with that nonsense. I think you huff gas with the Tootoo tribe in your spare time.


Are the Sharks not a better team without Clowe and Murray? Two slugs on skates who are notorious hotheads for taking dumb ass penalties. The Canucks were discombobulated by the Sharks new found speed and disciplined play.
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby Island Nucklehead » Sun May 12, 2013 9:43 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:Yes a Matt Kassian or Chris Neil is great but you don't need a Ryane Clowe. Seriously ? You lost all credibility with that nonsense. I think you huff gas with the Tootoo tribe in your spare time.


Are the Sharks not a better team without Clowe and Murray? Two slugs on skates who are notorious hotheads for taking dumb ass penalties. The Canucks were discombobulated by the Sharks new found speed and disciplined play.


The Sharks were a better team when guys like Matt Irwin enabled Brent Burns to go play forward. Murray was useless there and didn't play meaningful minutes to begin with. Replacing Clowe with Torres was a good move, but not a huge shift.

If Gillis seriously wants to play this St Louis/LA Kings style, the Canucks absolutely need to get tougher along the wall and in front of both nets. The D are too concerned with getting up the ice and scoring goals, they panic far too easily in their own zone and don't take the simple plays often enough. The forwards are too weak for the cycle game and almost never do anything off the rush. I'm not sure if it's a coaching thing, but San Jose was on the puck first 90% of the time, and the Canucks are not big enough to take it back. Either you play the speed game and own the puck (take hits to make plays) or you get bigger to punish the body and create turnovers. The Canucks can't seem to decide what kind of team they are.
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby Lancer » Sun May 12, 2013 10:24 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:If Gillis seriously wants to play this St Louis/LA Kings style, the Canucks absolutely need to get tougher along the wall and in front of both nets. The D are too concerned with getting up the ice and scoring goals, they panic far too easily in their own zone and don't take the simple plays often enough. The forwards are too weak for the cycle game and almost never do anything off the rush. I'm not sure if it's a coaching thing, but San Jose was on the puck first 90% of the time, and the Canucks are not big enough to take it back. Either you play the speed game and own the puck (take hits to make plays) or you get bigger to punish the body and create turnovers. The Canucks can't seem to decide what kind of team they are.


The problem is that most of the core was configured for the speed and skill game, and you can't just radically change that overnight so Gillis tried to change the cast around the core. Now, it looks like he's willing to change the core. Watch though, as soon as he changes the roster to a more St. Louis/L.A. style the league will want to 'crack-down' and call everything.

Even so, I think it is a coaching thing and we need a new coaching staff who has the ability to develop innovative tactics, adapt to the way the game goes, and get the roster to do it. I don't buy the whole 'they're over the hill' argument, because it wasn't long ago that the Canucks WERE beating the opposition to pucks and hounding them at every turn in the offensive zone. Either the tactics they used weren't working, or the coaching staff couldn't psychologically enable the team to get there.

I don't doubt the willingness of the players - especially the core - but it's a team that looks like it has no confidence in itself and is fragile. Changes to the roster need to happen, but the core is better than most of the league and I believe they have it within them to win it all. They just need somebody who can convince them again that they can do it, and show them how they can do it given the way the game is called today.

They need their swagger back, and it doesn't look like they'll be able to do that on their own.
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby Island Nucklehead » Sun May 12, 2013 11:43 am

Lancer wrote:I don't doubt the willingness of the players - especially the core - but it's a team that looks like it has no confidence in itself and is fragile. Changes to the roster need to happen, but the core is better than most of the league and I believe they have it within them to win it all. They just need somebody who can convince them again that they can do it, and show them how they can do it given the way the game is called today.

They need their swagger back, and it doesn't look like they'll be able to do that on their own.


I agree. This team lacks identity. It must be confusing for players that have been here for a while to undergo such changes with the same coach. AV comes in and implements a defensive style. Gillis comes in and demands up-tempo. AV adjusts game-plan for uptempo hockey. League loosens interpretations of rules, reverting to more physicality. AV returns to defensive "Playoff hockey" approach. Gillis tries to beef up lineup. Team is stuck with a lineup designed for skill and speed being asked to play in the corners.

A new voice behind the bench is probably the first change that needs to happen. But Gillis desperately needs to decide what kind of team he wants. Once the leadership from management is shown, I imagine the players will have an easier time understanding the process and expectations of them.
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby RoyalDude » Sun May 12, 2013 1:35 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
A new voice behind the bench is probably the first change that needs to happen. But Gillis desperately needs to decide what kind of team he wants. Once the leadership from management is shown, I imagine the players will have an easier time understanding the process and expectations of them.


Paragraph of the Day. Hit the nail on the head. Problem is, I don't think Gillis knows himself.

Still find it hilarious that some folk think this is all AV's doing. There is a wide problem with this team from top to bottom, lack of Identity caused by a confused, directionless GM is the root of it. The Roy, rental trade alone is enough to show you that Gillis has no idea what he's doing.
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Re: So where to we go from here?

Postby Meds » Sun May 12, 2013 5:18 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:
A new voice behind the bench is probably the first change that needs to happen. But Gillis desperately needs to decide what kind of team he wants. Once the leadership from management is shown, I imagine the players will have an easier time understanding the process and expectations of them.


Paragraph of the Day. Hit the nail on the head. Problem is, I don't think Gillis knows himself.

Still find it hilarious that some folk think this is all AV's doing. There is a wide problem with this team from top to bottom, lack of Identity caused by a confused, directionless GM is the root of it. The Roy, rental trade alone is enough to show you that Gillis has no idea what he's doing.


Still find it hilarious that suggesting that "the team would respond better to a new voice", and that "Vigneault needs to be fired", is translated in RD's head as "It's all AV's fault and Gillis is off the hook!"

I don't think anyone has ever said that Vigneault alone is responsible. If a coach is faltering, or if it appears that the talent is there but the team just lost its edge and a new approach may be warranted, then it is jointly the fault of said coach and the GM who signs his paycheque. Outside of a couple of players the team that went all the way to the finals was the same as the one that got bounced by LA and San Jose.

I don't think Gillis is directionless. I don't think anyone would believe that. He had a mission and a philosophy when he was hired. 3 seasons later we were in game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final, 4 seasons later we had won 2 Presidents Trophies, boasted a pair of Art Ross winners, a Hart winner, and a Selke winner. 5 seasons later the team is spinning its wheels and has been bounced in the first round having only won a single contest in its last 11 playoff games. That same GM admitted that the philosophy has to change now and that changes will be made.

So all your ranting about Gillis has been laughed at for a reason.

If you want to rant about it next year at this time if we have missed the playoffs, or even next October if he hasn't done jack shit to change the team, well at that point what you say will have some merit.

At that point.....
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