Gills and Vigneault

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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Todd Bersnoozi » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:43 pm

RoyalDude wrote:Fantastic post Bersnoozi, I am printing it and framing it


*haha* Thanx bro. We definately think a little bit differently than most here. Oh well, different thots/ideas is what makes things interesting. I really don't know why MG gets such a hard-on here. :lol: Don't get me wrong, I think MG has done a decent job, but I don't think he's all that.

With the playoffs around the corner, it's time to cheer on the boyz together and hope for a good run. We can bitch about MG in the off season. :P
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Meds » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:42 am

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Fantastic post Bersnoozi, I am printing it and framing it


*haha* Thanx bro. We definately think a little bit differently than most here. Oh well, different thots/ideas is what makes things interesting. I really don't know why MG gets such a hard-on here. :lol: Don't get me wrong, I think MG has done a decent job, but I don't think he's all that.


I don't think anyone here gets a hard-on from Gillis. I think that the majority of people share your opinion, he's done a decent job, but he's not the best GM we've ever had.

Apart from trading for Luongo, Nonis did nothing. His success in the draft came the year he took over, so it's a safe bet he simply picked the same guys that Burke and Co. going to pick all along. After that he added old players at the end of their career and traded away 2nd round picks and plumbers in exchange for depth players that didn't add much.....if they even played at all.

So I think that Nonis was pretty useless outside of one trade. I think that Burke was pretty good but missed a couple of pieces. I think that Gillis has been pretty good but has missed a couple of things too. I do get the impression that Gillis is trying to add pieces that both Burke and Nonis would not have attempted to add.

You may get the impression that lots of people think Gillis is the best GM going, but really you are just reading too much into what RD insinuates. If you disagree with RD, then you automatically think the total opposite of him. I'm sure he's taken that post out of the frame and burnt it by now after you said that Gillis has done a decent job.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Arachnid » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:12 am

Meds wrote:
Todd Bersnoozi wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:Fantastic post Bersnoozi, I am printing it and framing it


*haha* Thanx bro. We definately think a little bit differently than most here. Oh well, different thots/ideas is what makes things interesting. I really don't know why MG gets such a hard-on here. :lol: Don't get me wrong, I think MG has done a decent job, but I don't think he's all that.


I don't think anyone here gets a hard-on from Gillis. I think that the majority of people share your opinion, he's done a decent job, but he's not the best GM we've ever had.

Apart from trading for Luongo, Nonis did nothing. His success in the draft came the year he took over, so it's a safe bet he simply picked the same guys that Burke and Co. going to pick all along. After that he added old players at the end of their career and traded away 2nd round picks and plumbers in exchange for depth players that didn't add much.....if they even played at all.

So I think that Nonis was pretty useless outside of one trade. I think that Burke was pretty good but missed a couple of pieces. I think that Gillis has been pretty good but has missed a couple of things too. I do get the impression that Gillis is trying to add pieces that both Burke and Nonis would not have attempted to add.

You may get the impression that lots of people think Gillis is the best GM going, but really you are just reading too much into what RD insinuates. If you disagree with RD, then you automatically think the total opposite of him. I'm sure he's taken that post out of the frame and burnt it by now after you said that Gillis has done a decent job.


What a load of...you are swallowing :lol:

What board or universe do you read?! I have never seen hard-ons for MG on here, most just defend him from your putrid, undeserved, misdirected hatred of him.

It makes no sense and is just hormonal and emotional claptrap.... 8-)

As Meds says, no one says he is the best GM we have ever had, nor is he the worst.

It's stupid to compare him to Nonis (although, only one of them took us to within 1 game of the Championship ;) ).

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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:26 am

vic wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:The Bruins drafted Lucic, Marchand, Bergeron, Krecji outside of the first round. These four players are core key players for that team. They have a hot prospect named Camara who they drafted outside of the 1st round.


So Chiarelli drafts a bunch of players that 29 other teams missed on and he himself without the help of his coaching staff develops them into these young studs and core players for the organization?

You can seriously sit there with a straight face and say the coaching staff of the Bruins from their farm team all the way up to Julien had 100% absolutely nothing to do with these players developing into the guys they are today?


I am going to cut and paste something for you vic 'fly off the handle on another tangent that I have no idea wtf he is going on about' . This what I responded to which led you to mis-interpreting my response leading to your complete nonsensical diatribe. Hereyago -

Drafting outside of the top 5 or 10 spots is a coin flip.

If 30 guys had a coin flip contest, some of them would come out ahead. Some would come out on the bottom and most would be bunched in the middle.

lemmie splain - you cats like to drum excuse after excuse for the bare cupboards that Gillis has left this organization with giving us the worst ranking in the league for prospects, saying that because Gillis hasn't had the luxury for drafting in the top 10 is why his drafting sucks but I say, WAIT A MINUTE, example, look at how well Boston has done outside the first round, look at how well the Blues have outside the top 10. Why not Gillis in his 5 drafts soon to be 6? Is Corrado really only the best thing Gillis has to show for outside the first round? Where is his Hansen, Raymond and Elder outside the first in his 5 drafts as GM of your Canucks soon to be 6 drafts????
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:27 am

Meds wrote:
I don't think anyone here gets a hard-on from Gillis. I think that the majority of people share your opinion, he's done a decent job, but he's not the best GM we've ever had.



I call bullshit
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Arachnid » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:30 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Meds wrote:
I don't think anyone here gets a hard-on from Gillis. I think that the majority of people share your opinion, he's done a decent job, but he's not the best GM we've ever had.



I call bullshit


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh man, that made my day MountainMan

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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby vic » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:06 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
lemmie splain - you cats like to drum excuse after excuse for the bare cupboards that Gillis has left this organization with giving us the worst ranking in the league for prospects, saying that because Gillis hasn't had the luxury for drafting in the top 10 is why his drafting sucks but I say, WAIT A MINUTE, example, look at how well Boston has done outside the first round, look at how well the Blues have outside the top 10. Why not Gillis in his 5 drafts soon to be 6? Is Corrado really only the best thing Gillis has to show for outside the first round? Where is his Hansen, Raymond and Elder outside the first in his 5 drafts as GM of your Canucks soon to be 6 drafts????


I never said it's because Gillis hasn't had the luxury of having high draft picks.

I said that the late draft picks (i.e. outside of the top 10 and 1st round) don't have the luxury of having a coaching staff that can develop them.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby ESQ » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:41 pm

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:Let me put it this way, it's a lot harder to acquire and develop guys who can play the top lines/top minutes like the Sedins, Kesler, Edler, Bieska, Luongo. It's a lot easier to find guys to play the 2nd-3rd lines and moderate minutes in the likes of Higgins, Lapierre, Malhotra, Weise, Roy, Booth, Ballard, Alberts, etc.

I totally agree. Other than Burrows (I would debate whether Nonis gets any credit for a Moose discovery), I say Nonis failed utterly to even add 2nd-3rd line players. I'd say Carter is neutral given Nonis failed to re-sign him.

Nonis inherited an emerging first line in the Sedins, and a fading but still respectable second line in the WCE. Every piece he added around those lines was a failure.
Gillis inherited an elite first line in their prime and two-thirds of a solid 2nd line. Gillis has made a third line that would qualify as a second line on most teams in the league.

GIllis is now one series win from tying Pat Quinn with the most Playoff Series wins of any Canucks GM. Quinn's teams won 6 series over 9 seasons, Gillis' teams have won 5 series in 4 years.

I would consider Quinn the best GM the Canucks ever had, but nobody can deny Gillis' teams have been the best of any Canucks GM in history.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Rumsfeld » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:50 pm

Quinn shit the bed so hard in '95 and '96. Traded Momesso, Courtnall, and a bunch of other guys that made the team softer and less skilled.

If Gillis has made one big fuckup besides the Ballard trade (which looked pretty good at the time), it's failing to aquire an elite, big winger to play with Kesler on the second line. And he did aquire Booth and worked his ass off to sign Doan. Neither panned out, which is the way it goes sometimes in pro sports. No GM hits a home run every time they swing the bat.

I must admit that the fact that Raymond, Ballard and Luongo are still Canucks kind of pisses me off as well.

Besides that elusive second-line winger, the other big piece that now has to be considered in the offseason is a true #1 defenceman who can play a rock-solid 25 minutes every night. I say "now" because it looked like Edler could be that guy, but that's looking more and more unlikely. Really disappointing season for him defensively, if he has a playoffs like last year I'd try to move him this summer.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:42 pm

vic wrote:
I never said it's because Gillis hasn't had the luxury of having high draft picks.

I said that the late draft picks (i.e. outside of the top 10 and 1st round) don't have the luxury of having a coaching staff that can develop them.


OK, so this is how I interpret this, and excuse me if somethings lost in translation here, what you are saying is, that if non-first round draft picks like - Marchand, Lucic, Krejci and Bergeron were drafted by the Canucks and Alain Vigneault was their coach they wouldn't be the players they are now?
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Meds » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:59 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
vic wrote:
I never said it's because Gillis hasn't had the luxury of having high draft picks.

I said that the late draft picks (i.e. outside of the top 10 and 1st round) don't have the luxury of having a coaching staff that can develop them.


OK, so this is how I interpret this, and excuse me if somethings lost in translation here, what you are saying is, that if non-first round draft picks like - Marchand, Lucic, Krejci and Bergeron were drafted by the Canucks and Alain Vigneault was their coach they wouldn't be the players they are now?


That's actually a fair assumption when it comes to Lucic and Marchand. Both of those guys would probably have performed poorly under Vigneault. Lucic is at his best when he plays big and mean, runs the goalie, and engages in the after the whistle bullying. Marchand is at his best when he yaps non stop, dives, throws low and cheap hits, and plays dirty hockey. Vigneault (and Gillis) don't like that and have done their best to take that out of the games of guys like Kesler, Burrows, and Lapierre. When Lucic and Marchand don't play that way they often don't get overly engaged in the game and perform less effectively.

Bergeron would excel with Vigneault. He works hard, skates both ways, and won the Selke. He's the Canadian version of Kesler, just has better finish on breakaways.

I haven't really paid much attention to Krejci, I just know he's a smart player but as far as the Bruins go, he's possibly their softest forward.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Reefer2 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:44 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
vic wrote:
I never said it's because Gillis hasn't had the luxury of having high draft picks.

I said that the late draft picks (i.e. outside of the top 10 and 1st round) don't have the luxury of having a coaching staff that can develop them.


OK, so this is how I interpret this, and excuse me if somethings lost in translation here, what you are saying is, that if non-first round draft picks like - Marchand, Lucic, Krejci and Bergeron were drafted by the Canucks and Alain Vigneault was their coach they wouldn't be the players they are now?


I would say yes, there is a good probability that they would not have been given the same chances that they received in Boston playing for AV. Remember they have to earn their time to play for the Canucks.

Krejci played his first pro game at 20, he did have a huge year in the AHL at the same time so having him in NHL may be an easy decision
Marchand played 2 years after drafted, 20 games first season with only 1 point but he was given another chance and in his first full season scored 20+ goals
Lucic played on the team the year after being drafted 27 points in 77 games
Bergeron - played the following season after being drafted and had 39 points in 71 games

When was the last time this team took someone who they drafted and played him the following year? I would point out I bet the guys above were not benched because they made a mistake.

Of course once big difference (and yes I understand that it does influence the teams ability to play rookies) is that the Canucks have had a top team for the past decade so young guys are not really needed or given roster spots just because they have no one better.

Even if we did take someone at a young age with the top 2 lines on this team so good they would not get much ice time and even if they did 1 or 2 mistakes and they will be riding the pine ala Kassian.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Hockey Widow » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:15 pm

YA this year AV should have left Kassian with the twins for the whole season. One of AV's problems is he doesn't have a long fuse with certain players. They get a limited chance and then thats it. I mean look at JS. He, Raymond and Hansen had a good thing going but a few poor games and the liens got mixed and JS got sent to the farm. Now Roy is a winger and we have Ebbett. At some point you have to trust these kids and let them play meaningful minutes in a chance to succeed. Not all at once but this year would have been the perfect year to let Kassian have a long run with the twins.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Rumsfeld » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:40 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:YA this year AV should have left Kassian with the twins for the whole season. One of AV's problems is he doesn't have a long fuse with certain players. They get a limited chance and then thats it. I mean look at JS. He, Raymond and Hansen had a good thing going but a few poor games and the liens got mixed and JS got sent to the farm. Now Roy is a winger and we have Ebbett. At some point you have to trust these kids and let them play meaningful minutes in a chance to succeed. Not all at once but this year would have been the perfect year to let Kassian have a long run with the twins.


I think playing Kassian for certain shifts with the Sedins is a good option, but I hardly think AV should be criticized for choosing a proven clutch scorer and performer over a kid who has, quite frankly, shown very little of the skill and nastiness that we know he's capable of this season.

It will come sooner or later for Kassian, but he's not first-line material right now. We're not the fucking Panthers (as much as Bikerwhore wishes we were :lol: ).

I think Kassian's ceiling is as an effective 2nd line power-winger. Eager to see what he can bring in these playoffs with the leash off.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Meds » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:29 am

Rumsfeld wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:YA this year AV should have left Kassian with the twins for the whole season. One of AV's problems is he doesn't have a long fuse with certain players. They get a limited chance and then thats it. I mean look at JS. He, Raymond and Hansen had a good thing going but a few poor games and the liens got mixed and JS got sent to the farm. Now Roy is a winger and we have Ebbett. At some point you have to trust these kids and let them play meaningful minutes in a chance to succeed. Not all at once but this year would have been the perfect year to let Kassian have a long run with the twins.


I think playing Kassian for certain shifts with the Sedins is a good option, but I hardly think AV should be criticized for choosing a proven clutch scorer and performer over a kid who has, quite frankly, shown very little of the skill and nastiness that we know he's capable of this season.

It will come sooner or later for Kassian, but he's not first-line material right now. We're not the fucking Panthers (as much as Bikerwhore wishes we were :lol: ).

I think Kassian's ceiling is as an effective 2nd line power-winger. Eager to see what he can bring in these playoffs with the leash off.


Normally I'd agree with that, but in Kassian's case I don't.

The kid showed up, played big and tough, went to the net, cycled with the twins well, got open, and actually made life easier for them after the whistle. He had 5 goals in 7 games and was actually carrying the line to a degree. Vigneault switched it up because he felt Burrows could get the Sedins going and producing rather than just having Kassian producing alone on that line. (I know.....it makes no sense since if one line member is producing, by default that line is producing). He moved Kassian down and Burrows up. Kassian wasn't the same after. Every time the kid seems to find an iota of chemistry and confidence with a couple of linemates, Vigneault juggles things up and moves him up or down the roster. Hodgson didn't settle in and start producing until he was sheltered and given regular minutes with the same linemates.

I have noticed a resurgence in Kassian's play the last few games when he has been getting a somewhat semi-regular shift with the Sedins.

I don't think Kassian should have been taken off of the line with the Sedins until he had quit producing.

It was right around the time Kesler returned to the lineup that Kassian was moved off the top line.

Another thing about AV and favorites.....Kassian is 1/3 in the shootout this year. His first attempt was on Kiprusoff and he made Calgary's All-Star goalie look like a beer league backup. He then missed on two attempts, both . He hasn't had a chance since. Edler is 0 for 4 and hasn't looked even good on any of them. What gives?

I'm not disagreeing with you about Kassian's ceiling though. You could be right.
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