Gills and Vigneault

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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby tantalum » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:50 am

RoyalDude wrote:This summer will be Mike Gillis 6th Draft and Next season will be Mike Gillis 6th season as GM of this team. We better start seeing some results of those 6 drafts next season or his regime will go down as this teams worst in the drafting and developing department. In Nonis 3 short years as GM, so far, his regime has better results in that department in double amount of time Gillis has been in office.


Hodgson
Jensen
Corrado
Schroeder
Cannata
Putting on NHL uniforms this year.

Blomstrand brought the the AHL and may have an NHL future
Gaunce with a strong year in the OHL

In addition to the draft table:
Tanev (future top 4 D-man it seems)
Volpatti (two-year extension from the Caps)
Lain (unknown at this point but his size suggest he may have an NHL future)
Lack (of course)


If you aren't seeing Gillis prospects starting to contribute then you simply have your eyes closed.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Eddy Punch Clock » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:00 pm

tantalum wrote:
Hodgson
Jensen
Corrado
Schroeder
Cannata
Putting on NHL uniforms this year.

Blomstrand brought the the AHL and may have an NHL future
Gaunce with a strong year in the OHL

In addition to the draft table:
Tanev (future top 4 D-man it seems)
Volpatti (two-year extension from the Caps)
Lain (unknown at this point but his size suggest he may have an NHL future)
Lack (of course)


If you aren't seeing Gillis prospects starting to contribute then you simply have your eyes closed.


Pffft. Take off those FACT coloured glasses already.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Larry Goodenough » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:06 pm

tantalum wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:This summer will be Mike Gillis 6th Draft and Next season will be Mike Gillis 6th season as GM of this team. We better start seeing some results of those 6 drafts next season or his regime will go down as this teams worst in the drafting and developing department. In Nonis 3 short years as GM, so far, his regime has better results in that department in double amount of time Gillis has been in office.


Hodgson
Jensen
Corrado
Schroeder
Cannata
Putting on NHL uniforms this year.

Blomstrand brought the the AHL and may have an NHL future
Gaunce with a strong year in the OHL

In addition to the draft table:
Tanev (future top 4 D-man it seems)
Volpatti (two-year extension from the Caps)
Lain (unknown at this point but his size suggest he may have an NHL future)
Lack (of course)


If you aren't seeing Gillis prospects starting to contribute then you simply have your eyes closed.



Drafting outside of the top 5 or 10 spots is a coin flip.

If 30 guys had a coin flip contest, some of them would come out ahead. Some would come out on the bottom and most would be bunched in the middle.

But that doesn't fit with some fans agendas, so it's ignored.

What is somewhat in the teams control is how draft picks are developed.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Tiger » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:40 pm

Benjo wrote:I think the trio of Marchand, Bolland and Thornton do a better job of aggravating Canucks fans than the Sedins. We get so aggravated watching the cheap childish tactics while the Sedins just keep piling up points.

Yeah but the Marchand line and the Bolland line put up more points in the playoffs playing against the Sedin line.. No comment on Thornton..coz I dunno :)
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Reefer2 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:49 pm

I would like to see how the 2012 draft works out.

Both Gaunce/Mallet are big boys.

Mallet has already played on Wolves, hope he continues to be a late developer or sleeper pick.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Cornuck » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:00 pm

Keep in mind that the league was going to crack down on interference, etc - so Gillis went with a few guys like Schroeder. After the Boston series, when the league indicated that nothing was going to change, Gillis started drafting big guys.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Eddy Punch Clock » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:50 pm

Cornuck wrote:Keep in mind that the league was going to crack down on interference, etc - so Gillis went with a few guys like Schroeder. After the Boston series, when the league indicated that nothing was going to change, Gillis started drafting big guys.


This is a great point.

Mind you I don'think we've gone as far back as the clutch and grab era. But yeah, if they delivered what was promised the smaller quicker guys would definately benefit.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Todd Bersnoozi » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:09 am

Meds wrote:So Gillis benefited from the Lou trade, and the drafting of Schneider. Other than that I don't see what Nonis did that really helped Gillis out.

If you want to go back to moves that Burke made, well that's a longer post and a different story. I think the big ones have been the trade that landed the Sedins as 2nd and 3rd overall, choosing Kesler, finding Burrows, Hansen, Bieksa, and Edler, in the later rounds or as AHL tryouts. Burke's body of work speaks for itself, he was (is) a good GM, no question.



C'mon man, No Nuts Nonis did more than just get 2 damn good goalies for this team. He actually scored big time in his first draft as he drafted Schneids, Edler and Hansen all in 1 year (2004). Journeyman tuff guy Mike Brown was in that year as well.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/team ... 08756.html

He went on to draft Raymond, Machine Gun Grabner and Bourdon as well. Raymond has his ups and downs, but is a proven NHL player. MG gave Grabner away for nothing unfortunately and Bourdon was looking like a potential top 4 D-man before his accident, God Bless his soul. I think Burr was a Moose find and they recommended him to the Nucks, so I think he was actually signed on Nonis's watch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Burrows

Although Burke drafted the likes of the Sedins, Kes and Bieska, Nonis held on to them as young players and played a role in developing them into the players that they are now. These guys are still the core players and leaders to the current Canucks.

When Gillis took over, he inherited a D-core of Ohlund, Mitchell, Salo, Bieksa and Edler from Nonis. At the time, that was a pretty damn good starting 5. Ohlund, Willie and Salo were still in their primes, Bieksa and Edler were quickly emering players. Nonis signed a bunch of the core players to reasonable contracts, which allowed MG a chance to go out and get some guys like Demitra and to make a splash to get the much coveted Mats Sundin.

U look at every GM and they will have signed/traded for some duds like Bulis, Smolinksi, Carney. Look at the Great Gillis, he brought in Wellwood, Hornyichuk, Demitra, Bernier, Phalson, Johnson, Sturm. Do I need to go on? Marco Sturm lasted a whopping 6 games here. *LOL* If u want to talk about waste, Gillis traded for Ballard and Booth. 2 guys who barely play and are eating up $8million in cap space. Throw in failing to move Loungo quickly and this eating up another $5million. For $13 fucking million, even retards like us can get 2 pretty damn good players to help this team.

Nonis fired long time time coach Marc Crawford and brought in Alain Vaignault. Gillis had a chance to bring in how own guy, but for some reason he kept AV and thot AV was the best man for the job. Alot of the scouts from the previous regimes like Gradin and Delorme, I thot Gillis was just going to can and bring in his own guys, but again, he DID NOT do anything. All Gillis did in the hockey dept. was change up AV's assistant coaches a bit, brought in a few of his cronies like Gilman/Henning to help him and a few guys here and there. With the roster, Gillis is yet to make a big blockbuster trade. Sorry, trading young players like Coho, Grabner and a bunch of picks don't count. To me a blockbuster, is when u trade a core players/superstar like the Sedins or Kesler, it totally changes the shape of the team and the GM puts his stamp on it. Just building around the core doesn't cut it. I know, Gillis will move franchise goalie Luongo, but that will be because he has no choice. It's not a trade that he initiates nor is it a big/risky move where he's putting himself on the line.

So when Gillis takes over, all he does is add a few players to the core that he inherited and all he does in the front office is make a few tweeks here and there. This tells me 2 things:
a) either he doesn't have the ballz to clean house (players, scouts, coach, everything) and put his own stamp on the team or
b) he simply thinks what he inherited was really good, so he did not need to make any changes.
If the later, he should be thanking his lucky stars for what Nonis and Burke gave him, even though he may never publically acknowledge it. If a guy like Keenan was hired, he would of totally cleaned house, which he actaually did here *LOL*.

Some people say that Gillis brought this winning attitude/culture that turned the Canucks around. Sorry, I just don't buy it. This guy was an agent before this, not a proven GM with winning experience and stanley cup pedigree. You can have all the winning/positive attitude all you want, but if you don't have the horses, you are not going anywhere. It's the horses that pull the carriage and when I look at this team, I still see alot of Nonis/Burke's finger prints. I will say that with time, more of Gillis's players are stepping up and slowly taking on bigger roles on the team like Tanev, Alberts, Kassian, Higgins, Lappiere, Garrison, etc. They are good players who are doing a good job as the supporting cast, but the leaders and the stars of the team are still the Sedins, Kes, Bieska, Burr, Edler, Lou and Schneids (nonis's boyz).

If MG took a team like Columbus or Florida (a team that has absolute shit) and got them to win 2 president trophies and 1 game of the stanley cup, I would be the first to say that he is a master GM. If we look back to when MG first took over as GM in Vancouver and if he totally cleaned house by trading the core players (Sedins, Lou, Kes), brought in his own coach, hired a bunch of different scouts and then went on to 2 president's trophies and 1 game of the stanley cup, I would be the first to applaud him and say that he totally changed the chemistry of the team and brought in the right guys who could win. BUT, he did NOT. The way I see it, MG inherited a team that had alot of pieces already in place (some solid vets and some good young players ready to take on bigger roles). The foundation was already laid for him by Nonis. All Gillis did was add to the foundation. I won't totally slag MG and will say that he did a good job in adding some good pieces over the years (ie: Erhoff, Hamhuis and some others that I already mentioned), but the grunt work was already done for him.

I don't know why, but Cheezeburglar Nonis seems to take a lot of flak on this board. I personally like him and thot he did a good job here. Yes, there were some years that he treated his 2nd/3rd round picks like toilet paper and just gave em up too easily to try to make the playoffs or make a playoff run. He did have the WCE and the Sedin/Carter line 1 year, so he despertately wanted to make the playoffs, but I think injuries in the backend totally killed them. Let's face it, Nonis came in at a bad time too, after the Bert/Moore incident, the WCE was never truely the same. Bert, Nasi and Mo were never quite as dominant and the Sedins started to look more dangerous than them on the ice. After Bert was traded, the Nucks were basically a one line team again, but not with the WCE now, but with the Sedin powers activated to prime time.

I will say this about Nonis that I cannot say about Gillis, Nonis is a Burnaby boy and I think he has Canucks colours tatooed on his butt and his heart bleeds Canuck colours. When his buddy Burkie was let go in Vancouver, it was a tuff decision for him to take the Canucks GM job. When we saw Linden's last game, Nonis was down there with the team, all emotional cuz he knew what Linden meant to the franchise and respected what Linden did for the team for so many years. Even though Nonis works for TO now and no matter what he thinks about Gillis and our current ownership, I am willing to bet that secretly he still hopes to see the Canucks win a Cup for the city and the fans. I can't say the same for Gillis. Once MG is done here, whether he wins a cup or not, I think he's just going back to Ontario somewhere and just move on to something else. No doubt, he probably wants to win a cup, but not so much for the fans and this franchise, but more for selfish reasons in that he can have a legacy as the GM of a Stanley Cup winner. Let's remember, No Nuts Nonis is the guy who wouldn't make a deal of something like Kesler and Edler for Brad Richards just because his owner wanted him to as he knew that trade would set the franchise back and even if it costs him his job. Maybe I'm old school, and loyalty and character doesn't mean much these days, but too me, it still means a hell of a lot. Cheers. :)
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby FAN » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:44 am

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:When Gillis took over, he inherited a D-core of Ohlund, Mitchell, Salo, Bieksa and Edler from Nonis. At the time, that was a pretty damn good starting 5. Ohlund, Willie and Salo were still in their primes, Bieksa and Edler were quickly emering players.

The defense was exposed in the playoffs for being slow. The importance of Hamhuis and Ehrhoff to the Canucks' Cup run cannot be understated.

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:U look at every GM and they will have signed/traded for some duds like Bulis, Smolinksi, Carney. Look at the Great Gillis, he brought in Wellwood, Hornyichuk, Demitra, Bernier, Phalson, Johnson, Sturm.

Ya but what was the price Gillis paid for his duds vs the price Nonis paid for his? Gillis traded two 4ths and an ECHL player for Pahlsson. Nonis traded a 2nd round pick. Let's not even talk about what Nonis gave up for Carney and Weinrich. Oh and if you thought Demitra was a dud, maybe you would have preferred Fabian Brunnstrom?

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:I thot Gillis was just going to can and bring in his own guys, but again, he DID NOT do anything. All Gillis did in the hockey dept. was change up AV's assistant coaches a bit, brought in a few of his cronies like Gilman/Henning to help him and a few guys here and there.

Oh c'mmon. Gillis bringing in Gilman and Henning as assistant GMs represents a complete reshuffling of the front office. He also hired more scouts, promoted Gradin, hired Gagner, respositioned Smyl, and later hired a new goaltending coach.


Todd Bersnoozi wrote:With the roster, Gillis is yet to make a big blockbuster trade. Sorry, trading young players like Coho, Grabner and a bunch of picks don't count. To me a blockbuster, is when u trade a core players/superstar like the Sedins or Kesler, it totally changes the shape of the team and the GM puts his stamp on it. Just building around the core doesn't cut it. I know, Gillis will move franchise goalie Luongo, but that will be because he has no choice. It's not a trade that he initiates nor is it a big/risky move where he's putting himself on the line.

Well Gillis has certainly made a lot of nonmoves. Apparently he had a deal in place for the Sedins and that didn't happen. Now moving Luongo will most likely not be a blockbuster trade, but I think the decision to trade Luongo instead of Schneider (a decision made last off season) is a move that had a chance of backfiring and had that deal occurred I think Gillis would have put himself on the line so to speak.

Regardless, I think there are different ways of building a team and I don't think a blockbuster trade is a necessary requirement. Gillis didn't trade Naslund for Demitra, Willie Mitchell for Hamhuis, or Salo for Garrison. But he ended up making such replacements. Furthermore, Gillis didn't believe in asking players to waive their NTCs so maybe he would have traded Ohlund when he still had some value.

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:Some people say that Gillis brought this winning attitude/culture that turned the Canucks around. Sorry, I just don't buy it. This guy was an agent before this, not a proven GM with winning experience and stanley cup pedigree. You can have all the winning/positive attitude all you want, but if you don't have the horses, you are not going anywhere.

Well not everybody is going to buy in, but I think the attitude and impression that a leader gives off can and does make a difference. Nonis turned the Canucks into a trap team. Gillis came in with the idea that the Canucks needed to be a puck possession team that moved the puck quickly up the ice.

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:If we look back to when MG first took over as GM in Vancouver and if he totally cleaned house by trading the core players (Sedins, Lou, Kes), brought in his own coach, hired a bunch of different scouts and then went on to 2 president's trophies and 1 game of the stanley cup, I would be the first to applaud him and say that he totally changed the chemistry of the team and brought in the right guys who could win. BUT, he did NOT.

I think you are too focused on the need to clean house and start over.

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:The way I see it, MG inherited a team that had alot of pieces already in place (some solid vets and some good young players ready to take on bigger roles). The foundation was already laid for him by Nonis. All Gillis did was add to the foundation. I won't totally slag MG and will say that he did a good job in adding some good pieces over the years (ie: Erhoff, Hamhuis and some others that I already mentioned), but the grunt work was already done for him.

Right and Gillis came on board admitting that there are some solid pieces already in place. But look and Burke's work here and Nonis' work here and you'll realize a failure to add the pieces needed to advance further in the playoffs. Burke could never acquire that #1 goaltender and top 6 scorer to complement the WCE. Nonis had no idea how build a team. Looking back, the number of players Nonis acquired that were in the last years of their NHL careers is simply astonishing. The Canucks became the last kick at the can for many players under Nonis.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:34 am

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:
Meds wrote:So Gillis benefited from the Lou trade, and the drafting of Schneider. Other than that I don't see what Nonis did that really helped Gillis out.

If you want to go back to moves that Burke made, well that's a longer post and a different story. I think the big ones have been the trade that landed the Sedins as 2nd and 3rd overall, choosing Kesler, finding Burrows, Hansen, Bieksa, and Edler, in the later rounds or as AHL tryouts. Burke's body of work speaks for itself, he was (is) a good GM, no question.



C'mon man, No Nuts Nonis did more than just get 2 damn good goalies for this team. He actually scored big time in his first draft as he drafted Schneids, Edler and Hansen all in 1 year (2004). Journeyman tuff guy Mike Brown was in that year as well.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/team ... 08756.html

He went on to draft Raymond, Machine Gun Grabner and Bourdon as well. Raymond has his ups and downs, but is a proven NHL player. MG gave Grabner away for nothing unfortunately and Bourdon was looking like a potential top 4 D-man before his accident, God Bless his soul. I think Burr was a Moose find and they recommended him to the Nucks, so I think he was actually signed on Nonis's watch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Burrows

Although Burke drafted the likes of the Sedins, Kes and Bieska, Nonis held on to them as young players and played a role in developing them into the players that they are now. These guys are still the core players and leaders to the current Canucks.

When Gillis took over, he inherited a D-core of Ohlund, Mitchell, Salo, Bieksa and Edler from Nonis. At the time, that was a pretty damn good starting 5. Ohlund, Willie and Salo were still in their primes, Bieksa and Edler were quickly emering players. Nonis signed a bunch of the core players to reasonable contracts, which allowed MG a chance to go out and get some guys like Demitra and to make a splash to get the much coveted Mats Sundin.

U look at every GM and they will have signed/traded for some duds like Bulis, Smolinksi, Carney. Look at the Great Gillis, he brought in Wellwood, Hornyichuk, Demitra, Bernier, Phalson, Johnson, Sturm. Do I need to go on? Marco Sturm lasted a whopping 6 games here. *LOL* If u want to talk about waste, Gillis traded for Ballard and Booth. 2 guys who barely play and are eating up $8million in cap space. Throw in failing to move Loungo quickly and this eating up another $5million. For $13 fucking million, even retards like us can get 2 pretty damn good players to help this team.

Nonis fired long time time coach Marc Crawford and brought in Alain Vaignault. Gillis had a chance to bring in how own guy, but for some reason he kept AV and thot AV was the best man for the job. Alot of the scouts from the previous regimes like Gradin and Delorme, I thot Gillis was just going to can and bring in his own guys, but again, he DID NOT do anything. All Gillis did in the hockey dept. was change up AV's assistant coaches a bit, brought in a few of his cronies like Gilman/Henning to help him and a few guys here and there. With the roster, Gillis is yet to make a big blockbuster trade. Sorry, trading young players like Coho, Grabner and a bunch of picks don't count. To me a blockbuster, is when u trade a core players/superstar like the Sedins or Kesler, it totally changes the shape of the team and the GM puts his stamp on it. Just building around the core doesn't cut it. I know, Gillis will move franchise goalie Luongo, but that will be because he has no choice. It's not a trade that he initiates nor is it a big/risky move where he's putting himself on the line.

So when Gillis takes over, all he does is add a few players to the core that he inherited and all he does in the front office is make a few tweeks here and there. This tells me 2 things:
a) either he doesn't have the ballz to clean house (players, scouts, coach, everything) and put his own stamp on the team or
b) he simply thinks what he inherited was really good, so he did not need to make any changes.
If the later, he should be thanking his lucky stars for what Nonis and Burke gave him, even though he may never publically acknowledge it. If a guy like Keenan was hired, he would of totally cleaned house, which he actaually did here *LOL*.

Some people say that Gillis brought this winning attitude/culture that turned the Canucks around. Sorry, I just don't buy it. This guy was an agent before this, not a proven GM with winning experience and stanley cup pedigree. You can have all the winning/positive attitude all you want, but if you don't have the horses, you are not going anywhere. It's the horses that pull the carriage and when I look at this team, I still see alot of Nonis/Burke's finger prints. I will say that with time, more of Gillis's players are stepping up and slowly taking on bigger roles on the team like Tanev, Alberts, Kassian, Higgins, Lappiere, Garrison, etc. They are good players who are doing a good job as the supporting cast, but the leaders and the stars of the team are still the Sedins, Kes, Bieska, Burr, Edler, Lou and Schneids (nonis's boyz).

If MG took a team like Columbus or Florida (a team that has absolute shit) and got them to win 2 president trophies and 1 game of the stanley cup, I would be the first to say that he is a master GM. If we look back to when MG first took over as GM in Vancouver and if he totally cleaned house by trading the core players (Sedins, Lou, Kes), brought in his own coach, hired a bunch of different scouts and then went on to 2 president's trophies and 1 game of the stanley cup, I would be the first to applaud him and say that he totally changed the chemistry of the team and brought in the right guys who could win. BUT, he did NOT. The way I see it, MG inherited a team that had alot of pieces already in place (some solid vets and some good young players ready to take on bigger roles). The foundation was already laid for him by Nonis. All Gillis did was add to the foundation. I won't totally slag MG and will say that he did a good job in adding some good pieces over the years (ie: Erhoff, Hamhuis and some others that I already mentioned), but the grunt work was already done for him.

I don't know why, but Cheezeburglar Nonis seems to take a lot of flak on this board. I personally like him and thot he did a good job here. Yes, there were some years that he treated his 2nd/3rd round picks like toilet paper and just gave em up too easily to try to make the playoffs or make a playoff run. He did have the WCE and the Sedin/Carter line 1 year, so he despertately wanted to make the playoffs, but I think injuries in the backend totally killed them. Let's face it, Nonis came in at a bad time too, after the Bert/Moore incident, the WCE was never truely the same. Bert, Nasi and Mo were never quite as dominant and the Sedins started to look more dangerous than them on the ice. After Bert was traded, the Nucks were basically a one line team again, but not with the WCE now, but with the Sedin powers activated to prime time.

I will say this about Nonis that I cannot say about Gillis, Nonis is a Burnaby boy and I think he has Canucks colours tatooed on his butt and his heart bleeds Canuck colours. When his buddy Burkie was let go in Vancouver, it was a tuff decision for him to take the Canucks GM job. When we saw Linden's last game, Nonis was down there with the team, all emotional cuz he knew what Linden meant to the franchise and respected what Linden did for the team for so many years. Even though Nonis works for TO now and no matter what he thinks about Gillis and our current ownership, I am willing to bet that secretly he still hopes to see the Canucks win a Cup for the city and the fans. I can't say the same for Gillis. Once MG is done here, whether he wins a cup or not, I think he's just going back to Ontario somewhere and just move on to something else. No doubt, he probably wants to win a cup, but not so much for the fans and this franchise, but more for selfish reasons in that he can have a legacy as the GM of a Stanley Cup winner. Let's remember, No Nuts Nonis is the guy who wouldn't make a deal of something like Kesler and Edler for Brad Richards just because his owner wanted him to as he knew that trade would set the franchise back and even if it costs him his job. Maybe I'm old school, and loyalty and character doesn't mean much these days, but too me, it still means a hell of a lot. Cheers. :)


Fantastic post Bersnoozi, I am printing it and framing it
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby RoyalDude » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:42 am

Larry Goodenough wrote:Drafting outside of the top 5 or 10 spots is a coin flip.



The Bruins drafted Lucic, Marchand, Bergeron, Krecji outside of the first round. These four players are core key players for that team. They have a hot prospect named Camara who they drafted outside of the 1st round. Take a look at what the Blues have drafted outside the first round and late in the first round. Excuses, excuses...still doesn't explain why the Canucks prospect depth gets ranked as the worst in the league.

The Canucks bread and butter at the draft has always been outside the first round, excpet for Gillis.

Bieksa
Aucoin
Walker
Peca
Raymond
Hansen
Cooke
Schaefer
Odjick
Bure
Edler
etc.,

Past management has had great success drafting outside the top 10 at the draft. Still waiting on Gillis first round picks

Kesler
Schneider
Umberger
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby tantalum » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:10 am

Well you haven't quit whining about Hodgson so I guess you think quite highly of that Gillis first round pick.

His next first round pick has developed significantly the last two years and will likely be a regular NHLer next year.

No first round pick the next year
le
Jensen has developed well and has already seen NHL time. He also led his SEL team in goal scoring this past year (and I know you LOVE LOVE LOVE goals).

Gaunce has had a fine season in the OHL.


Now of course you like to talk about eh outside first round being the bread and butter. Hey well I got some good nes on that front as well....Frankie Corrado, Ludwig Blomstrand, Cannata. btw for bread and butter after his first draft weeks after taking over from Burke, Raymond was the only post first round find from Nonis the final three years at the draft table. And it's that failing from Nonis that relfects itself today the organization not having those AHL-NHL tweeners for depth than many other teams have. Think about it...Hodgson is just now establishing himself as an everyday player. 5 years after being drafted and he has very good talent and is going to develop faster than others. SO why are you expecting later round "bread and butter" picks to making a significant contribution in the Gillis era? Hansen is one of those bread and butter guys...when did he establish himself? 2010/11 season 6 years after being drafted (2004) is when he finally stuck in the NHL.


And of course we all know that in your world Tanev doesn't count because he didn't come from the draft table. Luckily in the REAL world that does count.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby vic » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:21 pm

RoyalDude wrote:The Bruins drafted Lucic, Marchand, Bergeron, Krecji outside of the first round. These four players are core key players for that team. They have a hot prospect named Camara who they drafted outside of the 1st round.


So Chiarelli drafts a bunch of players that 29 other teams missed on and he himself without the help of his coaching staff develops them into these young studs and core players for the organization?

You can seriously sit there with a straight face and say the coaching staff of the Bruins from their farm team all the way up to Julien had 100% absolutely nothing to do with these players developing into the guys they are today?
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby ESQ » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:56 pm

FAN][quote="Todd Bersnoozi wrote:U look at every GM and they will have signed/traded for some duds like Bulis, Smolinksi, Carney. Look at the Great Gillis, he brought in Wellwood, Hornyichuk, Demitra, Bernier, Phalson, Johnson, Sturm.

Ya but what was the price Gillis paid for his duds vs the price Nonis paid for his? Gillis traded two 4ths and an ECHL player for Pahlsson. Nonis traded a 2nd round pick. Let's not even talk about what Nonis gave up for Carney and Weinrich. Oh and if you thought Demitra was a dud, maybe you would have preferred Fabian Brunnstrom? [/quote]
The biggest difference is, none of Gillis' "duds" were needed to fill key roles on the team. I would quibble with calling Demitra a dud, we got two very solid seasons out of him and he met expectations (but did not exceed by any stretch). Bernier was a dud, I'll give you that. The rest were 4th line players (Wellwood moving up and down depending on how hot he was). Nonis on the other hand would constantly trade 2nd round picks to try to get a top-6, 16+minute offensive contributor. That's what killed me about him - constantly being told that Isbister/Ritchie/Smolinski/Santala/etc etc would get their shot with the Twins.

The Nonis Model was a first line, then 2 3rd lines and a 4th lines. The Gillis Model is a First Line then 2 2nd lines and a 4th line. The Nonis D-Corps was four #3-4 defencemen, two #6 dmen. The Gillis D-Corp for the run was a #1 D-man (I believe Hamhuis is a bonafide #1 on every team except Nashville, Chicago and Ottawa), a 50-point PPQB,

Todd Bersnoozi wrote:Some people say that Gillis brought this winning attitude/culture that turned the Canucks around. Sorry, I just don't buy it. This guy was an agent before this, not a proven GM with winning experience and stanley cup pedigree. You can have all the winning/positive attitude all you want, but if you don't have the horses, you are not going anywhere.

Well not everybody is going to buy in, but I think the attitude and impression that a leader gives off can and does make a difference. Nonis turned the Canucks into a trap team. Gillis came in with the idea that the Canucks needed to be a puck possession team that moved the puck quickly up the ice.

One of the Nonis lines that sticks so clearly in my head was after every brutal blowout loss, he would always trot out this line that "We don't like it, but we expect about 5 games per year will be blow-out losses". I don't disagree with that sentiment per se, as I think even the Hawks in the midst of a historic season had a couple brutal games. But for a GM to say that publically, that he finds that kind of performance acceptable, as long as it only happens 5 times a year, is totally insane. Not surprising the result Nonis achieved suggests that Nonis' shitty attitude and leadership ability infected the team.

At the end of the day, every Nonis defender points to how many of the same players were on Nonis' teams. But they never question why did Nonis produce such shitty results with substantially the same roster? Why did a team that had very little turnover go from making the playoffs once every 3 years, to back-to-back President's Trophies?

Nonis defenders constantly point out that Gillis inherited a team on the verge of breaking out. But Nonis inherited the WCE two years removed from being the most dominant line in hockey. He had the Twins in ascendancy, and the WCE. But after losing Carter and the Bertuzzi trade, Nonis was unable to put either Naslund (former Pearson winner), Sedins (future Hart/Ross winners), or Morrison in a position to succeed. I remember going to a game and seeing Markus freakin' Naslund skate on a line with Brandon Reid and Brad Moran. Both those guys, by the way, went from playing with Naslund in 06/07 to never playing in the NHL again. Not surprisingly, that was the year Naslund went from 79 points to 60.

That has been Gillis' greatest strength - identifying team needs, getting solid players for cheap that fit those roles, and letting them excel in that role. The team is most successful when healthy enough to have everyone in their roles. Nonis, on the other hand, would pick up whatever player he could find, try him with the twins, try him with Naslund, and pray that they score some goals. In spite of spending close to the cap, Nonis would have a second line of Reid-Moran-Naslund.

I don't think Gillis is a genius and I'm posting because he needs more credit. I just think that Nonis deserves Toronto (and vice versa), and that I look forward to more years of futility after they fluked in to the playoffs in a shortened season. It says a lot that the only person in the NHL that will hire Nonis is Brian Burke, and no other organizations were beating down his door. Had Burke not been fired, Nonis may very well have never gotten another GM job.
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Re: Gills and Vigneault

Postby Todd Bersnoozi » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:30 pm

FAN wrote:The defense was exposed in the playoffs for being slow. The importance of Hamhuis and Ehrhoff to the Canucks' Cup run cannot be understated.

Regardless, I think there are different ways of building a team and I don't think a blockbuster trade is a necessary requirement. Gillis didn't trade Naslund for Demitra, Willie Mitchell for Hamhuis, or Salo for Garrison. But he ended up making such replacements.

I think you are too focused on the need to clean house and start over.


OK, name 1 trade that Gillis totally robbed another team? I can't think of one. Sure, he made some nice signings like Hamhuis, Garrison and Sundin. Ehrhoff was definitely a nice pickup, but Doug Wilson just wanted to get rid of that contract, so he can add Heatley. Gillis was at the right place at the right time for that one and he deserves credit for it. I'm pretty sure Wilson knew he was receiving nothing in White/Rahimi. Nonis signed Hamhuis, which was great; however, just as willie wanted to come here and sign with nonis, hammer just wanted to come here and sign with gillis. As I recall, I think pittsburgh and phillie tried to trade for Hammer's rights before he was a UFA, so they could do a trade and sign type thing, but they got no where with him. Gillis was lucky with Hoff and Hammer.


Ya but what was the price Gillis paid for his duds vs the price Nonis paid for his? Gillis traded two 4ths and an ECHL player for Pahlsson. Nonis traded a 2nd round pick. Let's not even talk about what Nonis gave up for Carney and Weinrich. Oh and if you thought Demitra was a dud, maybe you would have preferred Fabian Brunnstrom?


Yeah, I agree with ya. Nonis gambled and lost with some of those trade deadline deals. Like I said, he had the WCE still and the Sedin/Carter lines going and he probably knew jovo was not coming back. He probably thot if he could make the playoffs, his team could probably make a run. He was desperate and overpaid with a bunch of picks on a bunch of guys who did not come back the following year. Who knows, some of those picks could of turned out to be good players. Gillis has a better track record in trade deadline deals. I will say this though. When Nonis was GM of Vancouver, the league was a bit different. There seemed to be A LOT more activity back then on trade deadline day. Nowadays, GMs are more hesitent to give up picks and salaries/contracts seem to block alot of deals from happening. Maybe that was the market value at that time for some of those rentals that Nonis acquired, so he did what he had to do.


Well not everybody is going to buy in, but I think the attitude and impression that a leader gives off can and does make a difference. Nonis turned the Canucks into a trap team. Gillis came in with the idea that the Canucks needed to be a puck possession team that moved the puck quickly up the ice.


I think Nonis had no choice. When Bert left and Jovo left, he let's crow go and brings in AV, Lou and Willie comes in, his team had to be more defensive orientated.


ESQ wrote:Nonis defenders constantly point out that Gillis inherited a team on the verge of breaking out. But Nonis inherited the WCE two years removed from being the most dominant line in hockey. He had the Twins in ascendancy, and the WCE. But after losing Carter and the Bertuzzi trade, Nonis was unable to put either Naslund (former Pearson winner), Sedins (future Hart/Ross winners), or Morrison in a position to succeed.


Yes, Nonis did still have the WCE when he came on, but I think u are forgetting one thing that happens to all hockey players... father time. Nonis was probably hoping Nasi was still a front line player, but he was clearly not. U can say that Nonis failed to find a guy to play with Nasi, but I remember alot of ppl saying at the time that AV's defensive system hindered Nasi's talents. After a couple years, it was clear Nasi was not a 40+ goal scoring superstar anymore, he had become a 25 goal 2nd liner. Nasi even went to the rangers cuz he thot maybe a change of scenery would help him find his game back; however, after 1 season, he knew he couldn't put up those numbers again, so he walked away from the NHL. Maybe if Nonis was able to acquire a Forsberg or B.Richards, Nasi would of been a superstar still while he was here, but those type of players are really hard to get a hold of. We needed Nasi to carry some players and make them better, not the other way around.


That has been Gillis' greatest strength - identifying team needs, getting solid players for cheap that fit those roles, and letting them excel in that role. The team is most successful when healthy enough to have everyone in their roles.


Let me put it this way, it's a lot harder to acquire and develop guys who can play the top lines/top minutes like the Sedins, Kesler, Edler, Bieska, Luongo. It's a lot easier to find guys to play the 2nd-3rd lines and moderate minutes in the likes of Higgins, Lapierre, Malhotra, Weise, Roy, Booth, Ballard, Alberts, etc.
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