GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby Meds » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:51 pm

The funny thing is that they seem to forget that from 2004 until 2013 the entire mission statement of the Calgary Flames was to win a Cup. They had the pieces in 2005-06, but failed. So then the focus was to add a center so Iginla had a true setup man and not second tier middle-men filling in through a rotating door.

It never happened. Almost a full decade goes by and they never acquired that guy, a decade is long enough to develop such a player too. They never did.....and they finally let Jarome go for a fraction of what they could have gotten if they had read the writing on the wall 2 years ago.....

Let's have a look.....

In 2004 the Flames were a team that were on the playoff bubble until Daryl Sutter took the reigns behind the bench, they then went on a tear, played tough defense first hockey, and everyone bought in. They also acquired Miikka Kiprusoff from San Jose because Sutter knew he wanted him. So let's look at that roster.....

Iginla, Kobasew, Yelle, Simon, Donovan, Clark, Lombardi, Saprykin, Lyons, Conroy, Gelinas, Nieminen, Sonnenberg, Nilson, Oliwa, McAmmond, Commodore, Gauthier, Leopold, Montador, Ference, Regehr, Lydman, Warrener, Kiprusoff, Turek.

On that team there are very few names that would be much sought after outside of Iginla, Regehr, and Kipper. Beyond those guys that team was a group of fringe 2nd liners and bottom 6 forwards backed up by a couple of #4 dmen and a handful of 6's and 7's. Kipper then stole the show behind them. A good many of those guys were starting show their age, and the majority of them are no longer playing. I suppose go figure, it's been almost a decade.

So then along comes the lockout. A year is lost. October 2005 rolls around and hockey is back, and the Flames are the favourites to win it all. I remember laughing every time I heard that. Here's why. First off, I knew they were a one-trick pony who had gotten lucky and over-reached on the backs of Kipper, Iggy, and Gelinas. Secondly I saw the additions/subtractions that had been made.

Langkow replaced Conroy. Bad move. Conroy had great chemistry with Iginla. Phaneuf was a rookie defenseman who everyone thought was the second coming of Scott Stevens.....until Bertuzzi man handled him with one arm while controlling the puck with the other (I'll never forget that). Amonte came on board as did Huselies. One long in the tooth, the other soft and somehow expected to be "the guy" to setup Jarome. Hamrlik looked like a good addition. As did McCarty and Marchment. Giordano, Nystrom, and Hulse also joined the lineup. Everyone thought this team was stacked now. But nowhere in there do I see a top 3 forward other than Iginla. I see a rookie dman who has top 2 potential, and Regehr who is a top stay home blueliner. Unfortunately it seems that the Flames over looked the fact that the NHL was hell bent on changing the game and making it faster. Stocking up on older and slower meat wagons who were great at clutch and grab hockey proved to be a bad move. Go figure.

I'll jump ahead now to 2008-09. Caglary was bounced in 6 games btw.

Cammalleri has been added, he's a top scoring center, but not much of a setup man. Conroy has been brought back, but it would appear as though age and time away from Iginla has eroded whatever chemistry they had. The now oft-injured Bertuzzi has joined the lineup, and Olli Jokinen is acquired. There are a few new names but the core is the same and has not been supported properly. They are still, by and large, a slow team built to play clutch and grab hockey and win the game along the wall and in the corners.....a game that the NHL has demonstrated for the better part of 4 seasons (come deadline day) that they want gone and forgotten. Oh, and no top 3 linemates for Iginla yet either. Jokinen was supposed to be, but I have no idea how they figured that would be the case.

Now we jump to 2011-12. New management by this time. Let's see what changed.

Iginla, Jokinen (round 2), Tanguay, Glencross, Bouwmeester, Stempniak, Giordano, Cammalleri (round 2), Stajan, Bourque, Comeau, Butler, Brodie, Hannan, Kostopoulos, Morrison, Backlund, Babchuk, Horak, Smith, Moss, Sarich, Jackman, Byron, Hagman, Jones,Bouma, Kolanos, Kipper, Karlsson, Irving.

Some new names. Woot! Woot!. None of them what the team needed. Not even close. At this point gone is the rookie stud dman from post cup run. Added is a puck moving, smooth skating blueliner who has NEVER tasted playoff hockey in his entire hockey career going all the way back to junior. This is now a team of plumbers and over-rated "stars" And NOWHERE in here is there a center who would play top 6 minutes on any of the top teams in the league.

If you were to examine this team's prospects you would probably have a laughing fit. Nobody in development, and I mean nobody. No top picks coming their way. Just the bull-headed belief that they have the pieces and the tools to get it done and contend for a cup.

I'm not sure how that translates at all to what Vancouver has now or will have in a few years.
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby Hockey Widow » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:11 am

You know Meds to me this conversation is a few years premature but the lesson in it is that MG has to be thinking of that future. And I think he is. He often says that success is putting the team in a position to contend every year and hope that in one of those years eveythting goes right, including on the injury front, and you win it all. How does he put it, be in a position to win often enough for it to happen. So I agree we don't have to panic and start fearing we will be the Flames in a couple of years. I do see the Flames as an example of how not to build. They kept trying to win it all every year and made some questionable deals to try and get there but they didn't keep an eye on the future. Where is their development of a goalie to replace Kipper? They can laugh at our predicament but I'd rather have our goaltending issues then theirs.

Our cupboards are rather bare, but not bottom of the barrel bare. But MG does have work to do to make sure we don't fall off the radar in the next few years.
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby Uncle dans leg » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:12 am

A good write up Meds.
Might I throw another hat in...
Iginla is a winger. Building a team around 1 winger as your superstar is a recipe that just doesn't work. Think of any team who has won without their best offensive weapon being a center. I can't think of 1 save maybe OV...and he hasn't won shit post season. You end up in a perpetual hunt for a center to "set him up". A good center as your primary weapon turns average wingers into top liners.

Another subject but EDM was crazy going Yak over Gally. Look at MTL now...set for the next decade.
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby Meds » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:17 am

Uncle dans leg wrote:Another subject but EDM was crazy going Yak over Gally. Look at MTL now...set for the next decade.


Yeah, definitely another subject, but with Hall and Eberle already there as wingers, and RNH there as a center, adding Gally would have given them deadly one-two punch.

The only time in recent years that I can think of a team having some dominant years without a top flight center was Vancouver with the WCE. Bert and Naslund were LW/RW and Morrison was the fill in who just fit right with them. But if we are going to be honest, during that time we were still often playing second fiddle to Colorado who were lead by none other than Joe Sakic, one of the best centers to play the game.
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby mathonwy » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:43 am

I think it's awesome that you guys remember who was playing when.

My memory sucks ass.

That is all.

:mex:
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby Reefer2 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:47 am

With UFA at such a young age it is easier for teams to continue winning as long as the owner is willing to spend to the cap. Once the Sedin's retire that is a lot of cap space that becomes available to sogn other UFA. A big key is to continue developing the younger players so you can fill the bottom 6 with cheap players.

The Canucks have a good core of 1 - 4 on D that don't need to be touched for a few years, Tanev looks good so they need to find another D man either on his last 2 years or bring someone up from within the ranks.

I do think there is a window but it can be managed, the question is how will AV handle it.

I agree the game was boring, enough of seeing the same team over and over again. Bring on the playoffs.

Really good to know that should either goalie suck or get hurt we have a 1B+.
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby RoyalDude » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:04 am

Uncle dans leg wrote:
Another subject but EDM was crazy going Yak over Gally. Look at MTL now...set for the next decade.


I see this Galchenyuk eventually being a top centre in the league, I just like the way this kid plays. He plays the full 200 feet like I've never seen any rook. Plays big, smart, sees the ice real well, great puck possession. He may not possess the flash that Yak may or may not have but Galchenyuk IMO is miles better and will end being the more valuable player to their teams. In some Montreal games I've seen he was their best forward, he's on the puck all time and does smart things with it.

I think we should just be glad that the Oilers didn't draft him, their future in the top 2 centre positions would be looking pretty rosey right now.


With Montreal, you see how quickly a teams good fortunes can turn around with lucky drafting, i.e. Gallagher, Gachenyuk, Subban, Plekanec, Pacioretty, Emelin etc. I just want to see Gillis start getting lucky in the draft. I must admit, it looks like he may have gotten lucky on Gaunce, fingers crossed.
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby herb » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:08 am

RoyalDude wrote:With Montreal, you see how quickly a teams good fortunes can turn around with lucky drafting, i.e. Gallagher, Gachenyuk, Subban, Plekanec, Pacioretty, Emelin etc. I just want to see Gillis start getting lucky in the draft. I must admit, it looks like he may have gotten lucky on Gaunce, fingers crossed.


Corrado too.

The thing with drafting beyond the top 15 or so picks is that there's a whole lot of luck involved. I think the key with Gillis over the next two years is to maintain and even gain as many picks as possible to increase his chances. Two first rounders in the 2013 draft would be huge, but even a couple of second rounders for Luongo would be promising.

I'd be more concerned about the Canucks future if we didn't have young players pushing their way up the organizational depth chart, but this year along we've seen Tanev, Kassian, Schroeder and Jensen all take steps forward. Corrado, and I believe Gaunce, can turn pro next year. It'll be interesting to see how they fair.

The thing we are missing now is real impact players coming down the pipe. Schroeder and Tanev look like they will be a decent 2nd/3rd liner and a stay at home second pairing defencemen. Nice and crucial players to have, for sure, but not players to build around.

Comparing the 2013 Canucks to the 2004 Flames is laughable. The 2004 Flames were a fluke. They barely made the playoffs that year, and were successful due to tremendous goaltending and air tight defence. That organization based it's next decade off of that one fluke year. The 2013 Canucks, on the other hand, are one of the best teams of the past several years, and are regarded as one of the best run organizations in the league. The key test for Gillis over the next 2-3 years will be the transition from the Sedins being our primary offensive threat to our secondary offensive threat. No doubt Hank and Dank will be around in 2, 3, 4 years and beyond, but who will take the reigns?

Edit: I tried to watch this shitty game against the Flames, but couldn't bring myself to care. Good to see they turned it on and won in the final minutes. The Flames suck, Jesus.
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby Waffle » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:03 pm

Yeah, Montreal got their good player by tanking and getting a top draft pick.

I don’t think most Canucks’ fans would mind them tanking one year to get a top pick at some point in the future. Unfortunately from this point of view, with the goalie and defence they have, that is unlikely to happen while the Sedins are playing.

So, they are going to have to be smart and lucky with the picks they have.
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby Aaronp18 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:38 pm

Meds wrote:Really folks, what is Calgary gonna do to anyone outside of Denver, Colorado?


Formally apply for a transfer to the Southeast I guess?

Oh wait, there is no more Southeast next year.

The Canucks played this game so that no one got hurt and then they shifted into NHL mode for a while to put Calgary out of their misery. They didn't possess this ability earlier in the season, but with the new look they definitely do now.
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:17 pm

Uncle dans leg wrote:Fr CowPuke:
Honestly, Vancouver reminds me of the Flames of a few years ago. Barren cupboard, aging team with cap issues, and a core that blew their one and only chance. Soon enough they will know the meaning of pain.
:eh:
But is he right? Maybe :shock:

Gaunce is the bright star in the cupboard which is already farther along than the Lames were 2 years after their run. Corrado is also a decent one but not the same quality of a prospect. Jensen is a good one as well but not blue chip IMHO.
What else do we have? Really though....

This offseason will be quite the challenge for ol Luggage eyes. He needs to shore up the line-up after the free agents walk and the dead wood get traded or bought out. He also needs to conclude the Luongo saga and address the lack of organizational depth. Good luck Mike...you're gonna need it me thinks


Canucks are not exactly loaded with good prospects, but they are no worse than Calgary is moving forward. Other than Baertschi and Broide Calgary has nobody. Not to mention Vancouver actually has some good NHL players in the 21- 28 year old range unlike the Flames, though if you listened to the bitter retards that permeate that site it's only Vancouver that will be in trouble moving forward. I am betting the Flames will miss the playoffs for another five years bringing it to ten in a row. What a mess!!!

But hey Textcrtic and Captain Crunch say Vancouver is a mess. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby rats19 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:20 pm

Aaronp18 wrote:
Meds wrote:Really folks, what is Calgary gonna do to anyone outside of Denver, Colorado?


Formally apply for a transfer to the Southeast I guess?

Oh wait, there is no more Southeast next year.

The Canucks played this game so that no one got hurt and then they shifted into NHL mode for a while to put Calgary out of their misery. They didn't possess this ability earlier in the season, but with the new look they definitely do now.


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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby Meds » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:28 pm

mathonwy wrote:I think it's awesome that you guys remember who was playing when.

My memory sucks ass.

That is all.

:mex:


There is this really cool thing called Google. You should check it out.

That's is all.

:roll:
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby Hockey Widow » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:43 pm

If the Flames don't find a quality net minder to take over when Kipper is done they are in real trouble no matter what they do.

They got good returns for Iginla and J'Bow. Two 1sts and 4 prospects in a decent start to a rebuild but those picks and prospects are a few years away from making an impact if they are to make an impact.

They done a good job of freeing up some cap. Whether the owner will allow buyouts we will see but they have a chance to free up a ton of cap space this off season and maybe even make another trade or two.

This "clean" slate will bode well for their future if Feaster gets it more right than wrong over the summer. But it will not be for the immediate future.

Here's the problem as I see it. Fester has been told the playoffs are a must next year. That is going to put pressure on him to do a quick re-tooling instead of a re-build which means he will over pay FA and may even trade away some of his picks/prospects.

He will over pay to get a goalie. Will it be Miller? Bryz? Bernier? Smith? I think he will go hard after one of the top goalies.He could probably have Bryz for a song and a dance. That I'd love to see.
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Re: GDT - Apr 10 - Van @ Cgy 6:30 SN pac

Postby ukcanuck » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:33 pm

Switch? What fucking switch, there ain't no goddam switch....
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