Gillis. Who is He?

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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by Meds »

Hockey Widow wrote: He seems to have fallen into this GM trap of over-evaluating his own players over others. So many times he has said there are deals out there but he doesn't feel the parts coming back are any better than what we have already in the system. He talked about bold moves. Well, bold moves mean being prepared to give up assets to get the pieces you need.
This is what it really boils down to.

Maybe he has over-valued his own guys, maybe he hasn't. Maybe the parts coming back aren't really better options, maybe they are. Maybe they are equal options and making the move just to shake things up is something he should consider, then again, you yourself said that the low rumblings were some disgruntled souls who weren't happy about the departure of Salo and a "shake up" trade would have made things worse. Bottom line is that we don't know what those offers are, so we are left to speculate, and a bold move isn't always the right move, so maybe that piece that we need isn't actually available to us without giving up a piece that creates another hole. Then again, maybe it is.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by Diehard1 »

Hockey Widow wrote:The plus for Salo was that he was a R handed shot. When he was out of the line up it became a circus in our own zone. This year we have really found out why. None of our lefties can effectively play the right. Other than that Garrison is an upgrade over Salo.

Salo took his one year home town discount. He wasn't about to do it again. His career is coming to an end and he capitalized on a 2 year deal. Don't blame him.

Mitchell, well he was questioned re his concussion. At the time there were rumblings that he would not get better unless an extension signed. The Canucks wanted to wait until the end of the year before they made him a contract offer. He was supposed to have said he would not come back from the concussion without an extension and risk his career.

I still don't know the truth about it. Some say he was really messed up with the concussion some say it was business. But the Canucks were never really sure if he could have returned for the playoffs, he refused as he didn't get his extension.

Fast forward to today. He has been cleared to play for a long time yet says he isn't ready. LA is mystified, confused but have moved on. Mitchell has his ring. I don't think he has any intention of returning until he feels 1000% Is he just making a smart health decision or is this a pattern. Who knows but his motives have been questioned before.

If Salo and or Mitchell were re-signed here for 2-3 years at 3.5 there would have been a lot of very unhappy people. We had the chance to match the Buffalo offer. His agent came back to MG once it was on he table as Ehrhoff would have like to stay. MG just said no thanks. I doubt anyone here would have been pleased had MG matched the offer.

The problem I have with MG is over Manny. He knew that Manny was likely done, said so himself. He knew Kesler would be out for some time. Yet he didn't get a centre. I know and believe he is trying like a mad dog to get a centre now but does he have the ability to trade the pieces required to get one?

He seems to have fallen into this GM trap of over-evaluating his own players over others. So many times he has said there are deals out there but he doesn't feel the parts coming back are any better than what we have already in the system. He talked about bold moves. Well, bold moves mean being prepared to give up assets to get the pieces you need.
True, the RH shot is needed and Salo would be a good fit, I just don't see that he's better than Garrison and I don't think it's all that close right now. Salo in his prime? Yep probably, but not 38 year old Sami.

For me, the Manny situation is the big one - if you knew he wasn't going to play, or had a good idea that he wasn't, then you find somebody who can cover him. You use your assets (Lu, expiring deals like Raymond, Higgins, Lappy, picks, prospects, cash) to either sign or trade for a guy. I'm not sure why he has to get full value for Lu, just move him somewhere and get on with it so it's not hanging over the franchise during the playoffs.

On Willie, I loved the guy but he's really damaged goods right now - doesn't seemt to want to play and hasn't in a long time. He's a very good dman and one the Nucks could definitely use, but he just isn't healthy. Not the kind of guy you want at the moment.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by dbr »

Hockey Widow wrote:The problem I have with MG is over Manny. He knew that Manny was likely done, said so himself. He knew Kesler would be out for some time. Yet he didn't get a centre. I know and believe he is trying like a mad dog to get a centre now but does he have the ability to trade the pieces required to get one?
I've been over this already, I think even in this thread. But if you go back to the beginning of last offseason here is the movement of centers who are definitely better than Max Lapierre:
  • Mike Ribeiro (would have had to beat Cody Eakin and a 2012 2nd round pick so you're probably looking at losing Jordan Schroeder and a 1st - that's at a point where the 2012-13 season is completely up in the air)
  • Derek Roy (cost two roster players, one of them Steve Ott who is exactly what we're trying to add - not subtract - again for a guy who might have never played a game for Dallas)
  • Steve Ott (the Stars wanted a guy who could center a scoring line for him, they asked us for Cody Hodgson last year)
  • Jordan Staal (obviously not available to us)
  • Brandon Dubinsky / Artem Anisimov (dealt for Rick Nash)
  • Olli Jokinen ($9m over 2 years)
  • Matt Lombardi (4th round pick, playing a 3rd line role in Phoenix)
  • Andrei Loktionov
  • Torrey Mitchell
  • Dave Steckel
  • Jay McClement
I just don't see a lot of deals I would have liked to see Mike Gillis get in on.

We didn't have cap space for most of these players prior to retiring Manny, the ones who are contributing at a high level cost their current teams an arm and a leg.

It would be nice right now if we'd signed a Torrey Mitchell, or dealt a 5th round pick for an Andrei Loktionov, but there's no guarantee we didn't try to get in on those deals.. and even if we had I think those players might keep Mason Raymond and Chris Higgins and Alex Burrows on the wing but I don't think they drastically change our fortunes.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by Orcasfan »

Gillis, like every other GM, has made mistakes. I don't doubt that, with hindsight, he would love to do over the Ballard deal. :hmmm: But, even that had mitigating circumstances (he didn't know he was going to get Hammer). Of course, if GMMG could have predicted the lockout, the injury bug, etc, I'm sure he would have moved on a 2nd-3rd C. But last summer, what was he looking at? I doubt he knew an extensive lockout was coming...So, like most of us, he was looking for a little delay to the start of the season. At that point, it looked like Kes may have been ready by December at the latest.

He was willing to have a look at Schroeder, especially after a training camp and pre-season. I assume (because it's reasonable) that Gillis thought he would have plenty of time to deal for a 2nd-3rd C by Oct/Nov, especially if Luongo was still in play. Unfortunately, everything came unstuck... :(
1.The lockout went on and on (and, in the meantime, he was not able to make any deals); just when it looked like the whole season was going to be a write-off, a hurried agreement for a rump 48 game season!
2. Kesler's injuries got more extensive, and his recovery time later.
3. No real training camp or pre-season to test out guys like Schroeder.
4. This is definitely a guess...but with such an unexpected long off-season, Gillis may have become a little more optimistic about Manny's potential recovery.

So, the season suddenly is upon us, and no one wants to deal! :roll: All the teams are waiting to see how things shake out in this short season. So, unfortunately, GMMG is left holding a prime asset he can't deal (for a reasonable return). He has to cut short Manny's season. And, on top of it all, Kes gets re-injured and the injury bug decimates the team. What a disaster of circumstances. :wow:

Of course, Giliis should have filled that C spot...but the only realistic time he had to do it was during the summer. And, at that point, his major asset, Luongo was not making it any easier by holding out for a Florida deal! So, I would give Gillis a pass on this mess due to mitigating circumstances!
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by 2Fingers »

dbr wrote: dbr post .
dbr - what you provided is correct but you are only mentioning the players who we think/heard was available. It is MG job to call any GM about players who may not be available and see if a deal can be made. I am fairly sure the hears and knows a hell of a lot more than we think are even rumours.

Please don't ask me to post what/who I think it should be, I am not an NHL GM and I don't have the resources he does.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by Topper »

Reefer2 wrote:
dbr wrote: dbr post .
dbr - what you provided is correct but you are only mentioning the players who we think/heard was available. It is MG job to call any GM about players who may not be available and see if a deal can be made. I am fairly sure the hears and knows a hell of a lot more than we think are even rumours.

Please don't ask me to post what/who I think it should be, I am not an NHL GM and I don't have the resources he does.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by dbr »

Reefer2 wrote:
dbr wrote: dbr post .
dbr - what you provided is correct but you are only mentioning the players who we think/heard was available. It is MG job to call any GM about players who may not be available and see if a deal can be made. I am fairly sure the hears and knows a hell of a lot more than we think are even rumours.

Please don't ask me to post what/who I think it should be, I am not an NHL GM and I don't have the resources he does.
Who knows, maybe there was a "perfect fit" type of trade out there, a team with too many centers (can't think of one off hand) desperate for a winger and a defenseman who can skate like the wind without worrying much about the fact that they're guys battling for depth roles on a good NHL team, and Mike Gillis said no to Mason Raymond and Keith Ballard for _______ just for the hell of it.. but given the lack of deals going on around the league I don't think that's the case.

From the trades we can see.. there aren't a lot of options. But maybe the 25 GMs who've done more or less nothing this year are all just 100% happy with their rosters. :look:
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by Hockey Widow »

MG is hampered by the fact he can't take much term back on a long term contract. In spite of his saying otherwise they have cap concerns for next year. Unless he can trade Luongo, Ballard and Booth he will have to buy out two of those players. So a rental is the best he can hope for and that may be just to expensive for us. It gets back to believing if you have what it takes to win this year you pull the trigger, if you don't feel you do then you play it out, hope for the best and re-tool in the summer.

Maybe Lack makes a full and speedy recovery and can be a back up next year. Maybe one or two of our young guns make the jump. Maybe one of our D prospects steps up. Maybe he frees up enough cap to land a FA or two on reasonable deals.

But I just don't see him taking term back in a deal right now. It is after all what is said to have killed any Luongo deal thus far is a team wanting him to take term back. He has said, and I believe, he has had deals on the table he could live with but it would require him taking term back. If he could unload Ballard and Booth and Luongo then maybe he can take term back and exercise a buyout.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by Island Nucklehead »

But, Raymond? Are we at the point where Raymond has to be relied upon to score goals? I think we are.
Raymond is T-17th for goals amongst left wingers... He's 100% a top-6 player and SHOULD be relied on to score goals. Guy's got more goals than Zetterberg and Hall.
By the way, it sounds like you think GMMG should have kept Erhoff.
It sounds like you think it was a reasonable option. If you think Luongo's contract is bad, Ehrhoff's deal is a $4M cap hit until he's 39. This is a guy we got for nothing, and is at best a mediocre d-man in his own zone. He'd be nice to have, but so would Vinny Lecavalier, the price is too much for what he brings.
As for whether Salo is better than Garrison...maybe, maybe not. But Salo fills a need Garrison does not. He was also more creative offensively and a more dynamic player. Injuries and age aside, Salo is way better. Injuries and age included, it's a toss up. Particularly given the "window" with the Sedins.
Garrison is a better option for this franchise. If anything, the Sedin "window" gets a couple more years added onto it by replacing Salo with a younger, more durable guy who can make up Salo's production.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by Strangelove »

Mondi wrote: You need to consult a dictionary for the difference between "dealt" and "replaced".
Okay smartass how should GMMG have "dealt with the absense of Kesler"?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??
Mondi wrote: Cap circumvention? 5+ million is a lot for Roberto Luongo when compared to the other goalies in the league.
AHHHHNNNNNN wrong answer Hans!
Mondi wrote: Raymond and Schroeder are doing a remarkable job, given the circumstances. But, Raymond? Are we at the point where Raymond has to be relied upon to score goals?
I'd say your Vancouver Canucks are relying on scoring by committee at this point.

Sure Raymond doesn't wear down defenders like say David Booth, but he's part of the committee and hey it's working.
Mondi wrote: And the getting rid of Hodgson, cutting Malhotra and not dealing with Kesler are a combined failure. Where are the NHL centres on this team?
The Hodgson situation - Cody turned into a cancer, that wasn't Gillis' fault. Gillis didn't tell him to go turn into a cancer. It's too bad that he did. I feel sorry for him, but then he went goofy on us.

Malhotra - Gillis was obliged to give give Manny the benefit of the doubt, who knew.

Kesler - He took longer than expected to come back and then got his foot broken, who knew.

A very steep price is required to acquire a difference-making NHL centre.

So again I ask you to answer my question above.
Mondi wrote: Injuries and age aside, Salo is way better than Garrison. Injuries and age included, it's a toss up.
Obviously you don't watch the games so I'll try to put it in a way even YOU will understand.

They were both UFAs last summer.

Garrison was offered more but settled for a 6yr $27.6mil contract.

Salo went for the most money he could get and settled for a 2yr $7.5mil contract.

Do you know better than NHL GM's about the value of players?

Ummm one dumps Salo for Garrison in a heartbeat is wot one does.

I approved the move and was the first last summer to push for the addition of a RS defenceman as the next move

(along with the scrapping of Ballard).

That hasn't happened yet, but it's easy to see the hole, much harder to fill it.

NHL trades aren't as easy to pull off as you seem to think.

Do you really think Gillis doesn't see the glaring holes at centre and RS dee?? :lol:
Mondi wrote: And please, don't defend David "empty netter" Booth.
How many of Mr Booth's 104 goals (in 377 games) were "empty netters"?

And how many serviceable top 6 Canuck forwards play as physical as Mr Booth?
Mondi wrote: This guy is a good athlete with some offensive skills, but he appears to lack good sense on and off the ice.
Booth is smarter than the average bear.
Mondi wrote: He and Ballard are a lot of cap space for virtually nothing.
So you want that "cap space" used for other players.

And of course you want these other players to earn their cap hit.

That's $8.45mil in cap space.

So yeah that's some awesome players you are demanding.

You DO realize you'd hafta give up some huge assets to bring in players of that caliber?

Tell me, exactly what kind of trade/trades is/are feasible? :mex:
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by Chef Boi RD »

Hockey Widow wrote:MG is hampered by the fact he can't take much term back on a long term contract. In spite of his saying otherwise they have cap concerns for next year. Unless he can trade Luongo, Ballard and Booth he will have to buy out two of those players. So a rental is the best he can hope for and that may be just to expensive for us. It gets back to believing if you have what it takes to win this year you pull the trigger, if you don't feel you do then you play it out, hope for the best and re-tool in the summer.

Maybe Lack makes a full and speedy recovery and can be a back up next year. Maybe one or two of our young guns make the jump. Maybe one of our D prospects steps up. Maybe he frees up enough cap to land a FA or two on reasonable deals.

But I just don't see him taking term back in a deal right now. It is after all what is said to have killed any Luongo deal thus far is a team wanting him to take term back. He has said, and I believe, he has had deals on the table he could live with but it would require him taking term back. If he could unload Ballard and Booth and Luongo then maybe he can take term back and exercise a buyout.
This^

It was fucking hilarious listening to those two fucking morons Sekaris and Price this afternoon, the biggest idiots out there. While listening to them hype up trading all our top picks for a win now approach ( as if we are not depleted enough on the farm) they were both suggesting trading Luongo for Grabovski and his $5.5 million per. How do a couple of fucktard 'CANUCK LUNCH' Team 1040 hosts become that ignorant to the Canucks cap situation next season is beyond me.

We can't be taking anything back in the way of big contracts in a Lou trade, Gillis needs to be asking for a UFA rental who's contract expires at seasons end, a prospect and a draft pick. Then in the off-season he either has to trade Booth or Ballard or both or buy one of them if not both out. Dale Tallon is probably massively peeing himself laughing over Gillis' predicament regarding Ballard and Booth. Tallon has Quinton Howden and 8.7 million off his books, Brilliant trading. What an asstard Gillis is. I assume that Tallon ain't done laughing until Gillis has to crawl on his hands and knees to Aquaman pleading with him to buy one of these two dingbats out.

I thought Botchford was the worse 1040 dude going but nasal voice Sekaris is winning that by a country mile, not to mention that he looks like a character from a Harry Crumb comic book.
Last edited by Chef Boi RD on Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by Chef Boi RD »

Strangelove wrote: Sure Raymond doesn't wear down defenders like say David Booth,
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by Chef Boi RD »

Mondi wrote: but he (Booth) appears to lack good sense on and off the ice. He makes $4 million. He and Ballard are a lot of cap space for virtually nothing.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by Strangelove »

Mondi wrote: Luongo for Kadri and Bozak was widely reported as on the table.
"Widely reported" eh? :roll:

Ummm... that "rumour" was proven to be bullshit.

Got anything else?
Mondi wrote: Salo could have been kept, had Ballard been waived, buried, trade for pucks...etc. Case closed.
Oh yeah, it SO fucking easy!! :lol:

Gillis is such an idiot and YOU are such a genius!

Pretty tough to trade Ballard after two seasons of injuries and 3rd-pairing icetime, bucko.

Buy him out at that point for $8.4mil and 6 years worth of $1.575 cap hits for nothing!
Mondi wrote: Something tells me Booth interprets the Bible literally, that kind of thinking speaks for itself.
Interesting statement.

Makes one wonder if you, Mondi, interpret the Koran literally. :mex:
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Post by 2Fingers »

Mondi wrote:Damien Cox ‏@DamoSpin 6 Mar
Worth noting at June draft Canucks could've had Kadri, Bozak and a pick for Luongo. Got greedy. Now have lost as many as have won.

Evidence enough.

You nixing my suggestions doesn't mean they were impossible. Even you know better than that, King of Contrarians.

As for the Koran...I think all religion is equally revolting.
If and I say IF that was what was offered and MG said no then I hate to think what he believe he is going to get and no freaking wonder he has not made a deal yet.
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