Gillis. Who is He?

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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:48 pm

Mondi wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:LOL at ANYONE saying Gillis is an idiot for letting Salo and Mitchell walk.


You can't be making the inference that because those players got hurt in other markets the same would be true here.

Regardless, he also let Erhoff walk. Ultimately in favour of players like Ballard and Garrison.



Mitchell was injured until late August of 2010 with his 2nd serious concussion. They offered him a one year deal as a courtesy but in July when they added Hamhuis and Ballard Mitchell was not close to returning. We can whine about the Ballard acquisition ad nauseam as it has been a complete bust.

I take Garrison at 28 over Salo at 38 any day of the week. Anyone who saw Salo's play in the last 1/2 of last season saw a very tired and old player .

I would have liked Ehrhoff back too but not at Sedin type money which is what he would have gotten over a 6 or 7 year deal.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby dangler » Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:49 pm

good pic,love that the pillow is wet too :D

Center shortage and a few bad deals are the only things you can hang on the Gillis.

GMMG was probably counting on Kesler being back,a Center in return for Luongo,plus there was the no trade during the lockout thing.

Every team has a bad deal or three.

I don't like the Luongo deal either, but with all the other long-term contracts being signed around the league at that time I don't know if it could be avoided w/o losing him for nothing(which still might happen) :hmmm: actually it could cost them $ to lose him for nothing :? :? :?................................................... Not doing that contract..now THAT would have been a bold move!!!!

That Ehrhoff contract is reeeedickulous,and Salo and Mitchell where both injury/age concerns
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Island Nucklehead » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:03 pm

dangler wrote: Center shortage and a few bad deals are the only things you can hang on the Gillis.


Yep. He deserves some criticism for not planning on Manny being shut down. Obviously they knew they were gonna give him another chance, but if he wasn't sure Manny/Lapierre could platoon again why didn't he make a move? Schroeder has done decently, but Gillis' MO has always been depth over question marks. Don't know why it wasn't here...

GMMG was probably counting on Kesler being back,a Center in return for Luongo,plus there was the no trade during the lockout thing.


Hard to know Kesler would bust his foot almost immediately. Again, curious that he didn't pick up a 3rd line guy to cover for Kesler/Manny and the "oh shit" factor.

And yes, Ballard has been a bust. Booth hasn't panned out (injuries) but we didn't give up ANYTHING for him, buy him out this summer, and it's mistake erased. How he deals with the goaltending will be defining for the franchise.

Every team has a bad deal or three.


True that. I don't think anyone will say Gillis has been perfect. But he's certainly set the bar high around these parts. I mean we could've gone with Steve (1st overall or bust) Tambellini.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Meds » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:07 pm

Mondi wrote:I like how criticizing the GM for making objectively shitty decisions somehow equates to being an NDP voter.

There is almost no logical connection between those two propositions.


It's for complaining and bitching about something, blaming management, and not suggesting anything better. All the onus on the brass with no effort or thought or initiative taken by the whining, disgruntled party.

No RD can't actually do anything about what Gillis does, but he sure could sure tell us what Gillis might have done better. What may have been a better available option.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Strangelove » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:19 pm

Mondi wrote:But to blame a coach whose GM has

1.Given him a forward crew that includes Schroeder and Raymond as 2L fixtures;
2. Includes Booth, Weise, Ebbet, Tostitos as regulars; and
3. Got rid of Malhotra, Hodgson; and
4. Has not dealt with the absense of Kesler; and
5. Thought getting read of Salo and Erhoff in favour of Garrison and Ballard was a good idea; and
6. Though signing Roberto at age 30 to 12 year contract was good idea,

...is fucking nonsense. :roll: 8-)


1. Schroeder and Raymond are basically filling in for Kesler and Booth who have been injured.

2. Booth has been injured, Ebbett is a reserve player, Weise and Sestito are decent 4th liners.

3. Stumpy's problems are legendary, and.. WHAT... you think Malhotra should still be playing? :shock:

4. Kesler cannot be replaced Mr GM Wannabe.

5. That was not the thinking process.

6. Remind me to explain to you sometime the logic behind a "cap circumvention" contract.


I'm not saying GMMG is great and AV is shite.

Not "blaming" AV.

But I am saying FIRE AV! :thumbs:

Thanks for listening....
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Meds » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:21 pm

Mondi wrote:Vancouver gave up on guys like Mitchell, Salo, Samuelsson and Erhoff to make that happen. I'd say any combination of those four would be better than that gruesome twosome.


All of those guys received massive over payments. All of them have seen their play drop since leaving. Every one of those contracts would have RD, and everyone else around here, bitching about the wasted cap space the exact same way they do right now about Booth and Ballard.

Mondi wrote:As for the BS about AV. They guy took the team to Game 7 of SCF. Won the regular season two years in a row. Has had the top PP and PK in the league for long stretches. And has seen the Twins, Kesler, Raymond, Hansen, Elder, Erhoff, Samuelsson, Burrows...etc have career years during his tenure. AV is a good coach. Heck he's won the Adams and been nominated for it twice.


It's not that he's a shit coach, he's just got shit for brains when it comes to adapting. He's worn out his welcome here. I agree with everyone here who has said that if Vigneault is fired he will land on his feet with another team very quickly. But he's not going to get it done with this team. I'll happily eat those words.

Mondi wrote:GMMG is a decent GM, but he's done very little to improve the team since 2011 and has given up on some key pieces and replaced them with downgrades or out right duds.

He also signed RL to a boat anchor of a contract.


Other than Hodgson for Kassian, what pieces has he given up?

Salo got $3.75M per year from Tampa. No way was that happening here. No way is he worth it.

Samuelsson was doing jack shit, so was Sturm, they were a combined $4.2M (I believe). Neither of them did much after leaving Vancouver, and Samuelsson has been injured as much or more than Booth since the trade.

Mitchell was just coming off a major concussion, he wanted too much for the risk and wouldn't sign short term on a trial contract to test his durability. He was good for LA last year. He's out again with knee surgery. I don't think any of us would have been happy with him here at $3.5M, especially if he got hurt.

Ehrhoff wanted Sedin money. He has tanked in Buffalo and is a total anchor of a contract right now. Would love to have seen him stay for Edler money or a bit less. He wouldn't though. If he was getting the same money he is now, and producing like he is in Buffalo but playing here we'd be pissed.

Lou is an anchor of a deal. Should have tried to shorten that by a couple of years.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Diehard1 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:26 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Mondi wrote:But to blame a coach whose GM has

1.Given him a forward crew that includes Schroeder and Raymond as 2L fixtures;
2. Includes Booth, Weise, Ebbet, Tostitos as regulars; and
3. Got rid of Malhotra, Hodgson; and
4. Has not dealt with the absense of Kesler; and
5. Thought getting read of Salo and Erhoff in favour of Garrison and Ballard was a good idea; and
6. Though signing Roberto at age 30 to 12 year contract was good idea,

...is fucking nonsense. :roll: 8-)


1. Schroeder and Raymond are basically filling in for Kesler and Booth who have been injured.

2. Booth has been injured, Ebbett is a reserve player, Weise and Sestito are decent 4th liners.

3. Stumpy's problems are legendary, and.. WHAT... you think Malhotra should still be playing? :shock:

4. Kesler cannot be replaced Mr GM Wannabe.

5. That was not the thinking process.

6. Remind me to explain to you sometime the logic behind a "cap circumvention" contract.


I'm not saying GMMG is great and AV is shite.

Not "blaming" AV.

But I am saying FIRE AV! :thumbs:

Thanks for listening....


Are people trying to say Salo is better than Garrison? Salo was awful last year, just horrible, and made of glass to boot. Garrison had a slow first 10 or 12 games and has been easily the best dman on the team since then. I loved Sami (past tense) but he's done being a top guy in this league. Garrison was a very good signing with a very good chance to become great.

Seriously - bitching about Garrison? I just don't know where to start.

And please don't get me started with Ehrhoff - last I checked he's signed until 2021 and that's a hell of a lot longer than Ballard.

Gillis has made some mistakes - Ballard for one, who just doesn't fit in here. Booth has been solid when playing, but is the new Salo and seems to be made of glass. A 3rd line guy to replace Manny is his biggest gaffe so far, though he still has 9 days to fix it. I've liked probably 90% of what he has done, and that's about 50% better than Nonis or Burkie did.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Strangelove » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:30 pm

Diehard1 wrote:Are people trying to say Salo is better than Garrison?


Well he's not "people" but Mondi says it all the time! :drink:
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Meds » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:42 pm

Mondi wrote:You're also talking about the goalie who had 2 the three 3 worst statistical games in his career in the playoffs. The guy who ritualistically melts down in big games. And the guy who "won" gold medal with a decent team in front of him.

Let me be clear, I'm not shitting on Luongo in this tread. Luongo is not a problem on this team.


Agreed. But he's also had some of his best games in the playoffs. Game 7 against Chicago in 2011. Games 1, 2, and 5 against Boston. So yes, Lou is not the problem.

Mondi wrote:But to blame a coach whose GM has

1.Given him a forward crew that includes Schroeder and Raymond as 2L fixtures;


Raymond is probably a 2L winger on most teams when he's playing the way he has this year and before he got jackknifed.

Mondi wrote:2. Includes Booth, Weise, Ebbet, Tostitos as regulars; and


Weise is turning into a very serviceable 4th liner who has speed and goes to the net. Ebbet is a fill in, the likes of which every team has in the AHL. Sestito is actually not a terrible 4th line option on the wing, he's tough and not a total cluster fuck out there.

Mondi wrote:3. Got rid of Malhotra, Hodgson; and


I think that if Manny's agent and family were consulted on Gillis' decision, and there was not even so much as the suggestion of a PA grievance.....have to think it was the right call. Vigneault wanted a shutdown center for his 3rd line, CoHo couldn't be that and it wasn't looking like Vigneault was going to try Kesler or Hodgson on the wing. Hodgson was being sheltered and showcased, Gillis got him a shutdown center in Sami Pahlsson. Vigneault then coached the team into a back-ass-wards Presidents Trophy win and a 5 game exit to the LA Kings.....with his shutdown center.

Mondi wrote:4. Has not dealt with the absense of Kesler; and


What should he have done in the absence of Kesler? Pulled the trigger on a deal that gives up a big asset and brings us a center who then has no place on the team when Kesler does return? Was there anybody to be had via UFA? Couldn't talk to players during the lockout. Could anyone have been signed that would still fit in the lineup and under the salary cap once Kesler was back? Replacing a top flight center is not an easy thing to do without giving up some major assets.

Mondi wrote:5. Thought getting read of Salo and Erhoff in favour of Garrison and Ballard was a good idea; and


Garrison is a better option than Salo just based on age. Ballard was already under contract. Ehrhoff wanted 10 years and money that he wasn't/isn't worth. He offered Ehrhoff the same deal he gave to Bieksa and Hamhuis, Ehrhoff balked and walked. Ehrhoff at $5M for 10 years would have been as bad as Lou at $5.3 and 12.

Mondi wrote:6. Though signing Roberto at age 30 to 12 year contract was good idea,


Yeah, that was a bit dumb. Should have been 10 years max, although when that contract was signed player contracts going beyond the age of 40 didn't matter. Now they do.

Mondi wrote:...is fucking nonsense. :roll: 8-)


What is nonsense is the things that you seem to think he could have fixed like they were just pick up the phone and make it happen kind of jobs.

Mondi wrote:GMMG has done almost nothing to improve the team since 2011, when it peaked. AV can only do as much as he can with the players that he has. That includes finishing 1st in the regular season in 2010-2011, 2011-2012 and his team currently sits sixth in the NHL (with J-Scrho, A-Ebbets and MaxLap as three of it four centre). You tell me who is doing the better job?


The problem at center is mostly the result of Kesler being out. As I said before, it's not an easy fix. Lapierre is a decent 4th line center, Vigneault figured it was a better idea to play him on the 3rd line and have Schroeder on the 4th line. This decision was made while the top 2 lines were struggling to put pucks in the net, so AV moves an offensively minded forward with better than average vision and distribution ability down to the 4th line while keeping Lapierre as an anchor between Kassian and Booth who were really skating well and generating offense. Schroeder should have been tried on that line. Any team that loses it's 2nd line center, top 3 PK'ing forward, top 5 in league two-way-skater, and key PP guy, is going to struggle and find it difficult to replace him.

The team is in 6th because of a guy wearing #35. The PP is in the tank, the PK is hurting. Why has the same special teams core suddenly gone from the top of the league to below the middle of the pack? I'd say system and coaching.

Any coach who lets his star players make a million mistakes and never sits them, but nails guys like Ballard, Kassian, and the entire 2nd PP unit, to the bench in favor of guys who aren't even skating.....that coach has his head up his ass. Gillis may not have given AV the dream team, but Vigneault sure doesn't appear to be doing things that properly utilize the guys he does have.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Hockey Widow » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:16 pm

The plus for Salo was that he was a R handed shot. When he was out of the line up it became a circus in our own zone. This year we have really found out why. None of our lefties can effectively play the right. Other than that Garrison is an upgrade over Salo.

Salo took his one year home town discount. He wasn't about to do it again. His career is coming to an end and he capitalized on a 2 year deal. Don't blame him.

Mitchell, well he was questioned re his concussion. At the time there were rumblings that he would not get better unless an extension signed. The Canucks wanted to wait until the end of the year before they made him a contract offer. He was supposed to have said he would not come back from the concussion without an extension and risk his career.

I still don't know the truth about it. Some say he was really messed up with the concussion some say it was business. But the Canucks were never really sure if he could have returned for the playoffs, he refused as he didn't get his extension.

Fast forward to today. He has been cleared to play for a long time yet says he isn't ready. LA is mystified, confused but have moved on. Mitchell has his ring. I don't think he has any intention of returning until he feels 1000% Is he just making a smart health decision or is this a pattern. Who knows but his motives have been questioned before.

If Salo and or Mitchell were re-signed here for 2-3 years at 3.5 there would have been a lot of very unhappy people. We had the chance to match the Buffalo offer. His agent came back to MG once it was on he table as Ehrhoff would have like to stay. MG just said no thanks. I doubt anyone here would have been pleased had MG matched the offer.

The problem I have with MG is over Manny. He knew that Manny was likely done, said so himself. He knew Kesler would be out for some time. Yet he didn't get a centre. I know and believe he is trying like a mad dog to get a centre now but does he have the ability to trade the pieces required to get one?

He seems to have fallen into this GM trap of over-evaluating his own players over others. So many times he has said there are deals out there but he doesn't feel the parts coming back are any better than what we have already in the system. He talked about bold moves. Well, bold moves mean being prepared to give up assets to get the pieces you need.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Meds » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:36 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:He seems to have fallen into this GM trap of over-evaluating his own players over others. So many times he has said there are deals out there but he doesn't feel the parts coming back are any better than what we have already in the system. He talked about bold moves. Well, bold moves mean being prepared to give up assets to get the pieces you need.


This is what it really boils down to.

Maybe he has over-valued his own guys, maybe he hasn't. Maybe the parts coming back aren't really better options, maybe they are. Maybe they are equal options and making the move just to shake things up is something he should consider, then again, you yourself said that the low rumblings were some disgruntled souls who weren't happy about the departure of Salo and a "shake up" trade would have made things worse. Bottom line is that we don't know what those offers are, so we are left to speculate, and a bold move isn't always the right move, so maybe that piece that we need isn't actually available to us without giving up a piece that creates another hole. Then again, maybe it is.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Diehard1 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:45 am

Hockey Widow wrote:The plus for Salo was that he was a R handed shot. When he was out of the line up it became a circus in our own zone. This year we have really found out why. None of our lefties can effectively play the right. Other than that Garrison is an upgrade over Salo.

Salo took his one year home town discount. He wasn't about to do it again. His career is coming to an end and he capitalized on a 2 year deal. Don't blame him.

Mitchell, well he was questioned re his concussion. At the time there were rumblings that he would not get better unless an extension signed. The Canucks wanted to wait until the end of the year before they made him a contract offer. He was supposed to have said he would not come back from the concussion without an extension and risk his career.

I still don't know the truth about it. Some say he was really messed up with the concussion some say it was business. But the Canucks were never really sure if he could have returned for the playoffs, he refused as he didn't get his extension.

Fast forward to today. He has been cleared to play for a long time yet says he isn't ready. LA is mystified, confused but have moved on. Mitchell has his ring. I don't think he has any intention of returning until he feels 1000% Is he just making a smart health decision or is this a pattern. Who knows but his motives have been questioned before.

If Salo and or Mitchell were re-signed here for 2-3 years at 3.5 there would have been a lot of very unhappy people. We had the chance to match the Buffalo offer. His agent came back to MG once it was on he table as Ehrhoff would have like to stay. MG just said no thanks. I doubt anyone here would have been pleased had MG matched the offer.

The problem I have with MG is over Manny. He knew that Manny was likely done, said so himself. He knew Kesler would be out for some time. Yet he didn't get a centre. I know and believe he is trying like a mad dog to get a centre now but does he have the ability to trade the pieces required to get one?

He seems to have fallen into this GM trap of over-evaluating his own players over others. So many times he has said there are deals out there but he doesn't feel the parts coming back are any better than what we have already in the system. He talked about bold moves. Well, bold moves mean being prepared to give up assets to get the pieces you need.


True, the RH shot is needed and Salo would be a good fit, I just don't see that he's better than Garrison and I don't think it's all that close right now. Salo in his prime? Yep probably, but not 38 year old Sami.

For me, the Manny situation is the big one - if you knew he wasn't going to play, or had a good idea that he wasn't, then you find somebody who can cover him. You use your assets (Lu, expiring deals like Raymond, Higgins, Lappy, picks, prospects, cash) to either sign or trade for a guy. I'm not sure why he has to get full value for Lu, just move him somewhere and get on with it so it's not hanging over the franchise during the playoffs.

On Willie, I loved the guy but he's really damaged goods right now - doesn't seemt to want to play and hasn't in a long time. He's a very good dman and one the Nucks could definitely use, but he just isn't healthy. Not the kind of guy you want at the moment.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby dbr » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:18 am

Hockey Widow wrote:The problem I have with MG is over Manny. He knew that Manny was likely done, said so himself. He knew Kesler would be out for some time. Yet he didn't get a centre. I know and believe he is trying like a mad dog to get a centre now but does he have the ability to trade the pieces required to get one?


I've been over this already, I think even in this thread. But if you go back to the beginning of last offseason here is the movement of centers who are definitely better than Max Lapierre:

  • Mike Ribeiro (would have had to beat Cody Eakin and a 2012 2nd round pick so you're probably looking at losing Jordan Schroeder and a 1st - that's at a point where the 2012-13 season is completely up in the air)
  • Derek Roy (cost two roster players, one of them Steve Ott who is exactly what we're trying to add - not subtract - again for a guy who might have never played a game for Dallas)
  • Steve Ott (the Stars wanted a guy who could center a scoring line for him, they asked us for Cody Hodgson last year)
  • Jordan Staal (obviously not available to us)
  • Brandon Dubinsky / Artem Anisimov (dealt for Rick Nash)
  • Olli Jokinen ($9m over 2 years)
  • Matt Lombardi (4th round pick, playing a 3rd line role in Phoenix)
  • Andrei Loktionov
  • Torrey Mitchell
  • Dave Steckel
  • Jay McClement

I just don't see a lot of deals I would have liked to see Mike Gillis get in on.

We didn't have cap space for most of these players prior to retiring Manny, the ones who are contributing at a high level cost their current teams an arm and a leg.

It would be nice right now if we'd signed a Torrey Mitchell, or dealt a 5th round pick for an Andrei Loktionov, but there's no guarantee we didn't try to get in on those deals.. and even if we had I think those players might keep Mason Raymond and Chris Higgins and Alex Burrows on the wing but I don't think they drastically change our fortunes.
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Orcasfan » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:04 am

Gillis, like every other GM, has made mistakes. I don't doubt that, with hindsight, he would love to do over the Ballard deal. :hmmm: But, even that had mitigating circumstances (he didn't know he was going to get Hammer). Of course, if GMMG could have predicted the lockout, the injury bug, etc, I'm sure he would have moved on a 2nd-3rd C. But last summer, what was he looking at? I doubt he knew an extensive lockout was coming...So, like most of us, he was looking for a little delay to the start of the season. At that point, it looked like Kes may have been ready by December at the latest.

He was willing to have a look at Schroeder, especially after a training camp and pre-season. I assume (because it's reasonable) that Gillis thought he would have plenty of time to deal for a 2nd-3rd C by Oct/Nov, especially if Luongo was still in play. Unfortunately, everything came unstuck... :(
1.The lockout went on and on (and, in the meantime, he was not able to make any deals); just when it looked like the whole season was going to be a write-off, a hurried agreement for a rump 48 game season!
2. Kesler's injuries got more extensive, and his recovery time later.
3. No real training camp or pre-season to test out guys like Schroeder.
4. This is definitely a guess...but with such an unexpected long off-season, Gillis may have become a little more optimistic about Manny's potential recovery.

So, the season suddenly is upon us, and no one wants to deal! :roll: All the teams are waiting to see how things shake out in this short season. So, unfortunately, GMMG is left holding a prime asset he can't deal (for a reasonable return). He has to cut short Manny's season. And, on top of it all, Kes gets re-injured and the injury bug decimates the team. What a disaster of circumstances. :wow:

Of course, Giliis should have filled that C spot...but the only realistic time he had to do it was during the summer. And, at that point, his major asset, Luongo was not making it any easier by holding out for a Florida deal! So, I would give Gillis a pass on this mess due to mitigating circumstances!
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Re: Gillis. Who is He?

Postby Reefer2 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:13 am

dbr wrote:dbr post .


dbr - what you provided is correct but you are only mentioning the players who we think/heard was available. It is MG job to call any GM about players who may not be available and see if a deal can be made. I am fairly sure the hears and knows a hell of a lot more than we think are even rumours.

Please don't ask me to post what/who I think it should be, I am not an NHL GM and I don't have the resources he does.
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