what has to happen to get the ship on course?

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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby Tiger » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:22 am

vic said:
GMMG assembled the group that has won more games than any other team over the past two years, and he's the problem. Gillis's signings, re-signings , and trades have giving the Canucks possibly the best lineup in their history for the past two years and he hasn't done enough.


MG didn't sign any of the core players - Sedins,Kessler,Hansen,Raymond.. and has done little to strengthen the team.Yep resigning ok. This team has been in decline since over a year ago and needed an infusion of talent.. Yeah Ballards got speed .. Just is useless defensively and brings nothing as a goal scorer..The Canucks were at the top of there game in 2011 but the Sedin's are aging and Kessler has not returned to form after injuries..We are short 2 Centers, haven't made any good trades since he came on board and many very questionable signings...AV can only coach the players he gets and MG hasn't given him much.
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby BingoTough » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:14 am

Tiger wrote:vic said:
MG didn't sign any of the core players - Sedins,Kessler,Hansen,Raymond.. and has done little to strengthen the team.Yep resigning ok. This team has been in decline since over a year ago and needed an infusion of talent.. Yeah Ballards got speed .. Just is useless defensively and brings nothing as a goal scorer..The Canucks were at the top of there game in 2011 but the Sedin's are aging and Kessler has not returned to form after injuries..We are short 2 Centers, haven't made any good trades since he came on board and many very questionable signings...AV can only coach the players he gets and MG hasn't given him much.


When you already have top-end talent, the salary cap limits MG from bringing in any other top-end folks. I think he's done okay, but not great. I don't see that he has a lot of bandwidth for bold moves and big changes
- He's kept a balanced D, which makes sense given the level of injuries we always see.
- You can't bring in another top-3, we already pay for 3 elite forwards. Hamhuis was a good call.
- Why would you replace the Sedins, Kessler, Hansen, Raymond, Burrows?
- You don't waste a major asset like Lou on a temporary band-aid (i.e. Kesler replacement) and you don't park a ton of cash on a 3rd line centre. Pitts traded Staal for just this reason.
- We only need to be good enough to make it into the playoffs. Granted we're teetering on the brink, but you don't want to mortgage your future for a president's trophy. The SC is a crapshoot.
- We can't afford to trade draft picks for winning now. We're simply too expensive, even though our draft picks aren't top-end.

Mistakes (not exhaustive):
- bitch-slapping Raymond. No chance of a discount now.
- Losing Willie & Salo
- Keeping Manny
- Booth was a gamble
- Ballard has been mismanaged by the coach
- Ballard trade
- GMMG has mismanaged AV

The worst thing would to end up like Calgary, if you're headed there, you might as well blow it up. It will be interesting to see how Detroit fare and whether they can recover.
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby BingoTough » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:17 am

vic wrote:When good players on others teams come to the Canucks and under-perform (Ballard, Booth, Garrison) and the Canucks depth and role players go onto other teams to have career years (Hodgson and Grabner) it tells me the coaching staff can't get the best out of their players.


+1
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby dbr » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:11 am

Tiger wrote:This team has been in decline since over a year ago..


I've seen people make this claim all over the place lately. Since mid-season last year (let's say the Boston game is where the decline really started) the Canucks have had one trade deadline and one offseason (where everyone knew the cap would be going down and nobody knew.. well anything else about the CBA environment they were heading into) to address the holes we all know are there.

In that time the Canucks have acquired a budding power forward and signed a top four defenseman, not exactly hitting for the cycle so to speak but still addressing a few needs.

I'll agree that it was a gamble heading into the season thinking that Malhotra would get healthy, Kesler would stay healthy and Schroeder would be ready to make an impact in the NHL.. but I don't see very much movement since the end of last year that I wish the Canucks would have been in on.

Mike Ribeiro and Derek Roy are pretty good players but there are UFAs at the end of a season nobody was sure would happen when they were traded - and they both cost quite a bit. If Mike Gillis had given up Jordan Schroeder and a 1st for Ribeiro or two roster players for Roy and the season hadn't even been played that would have been a drastic setback for this organization.

So who else out there has moved? Olli Jokinen at $4.5m a year? After that in free agency you have guys like Torrey Mitchell and Adam freaking Burish making close to $2m a year, we could use those guys right now but on the books next year they hurt more than they help.

I would love for Mike Gillis to have made *some* move to get us another center, preferably one who makes the inevitable loss of Ryan Kesler less painful - but I don't see any moves out there that I'd say would have made sense for the Canucks.

But then I don't really think this team's core players are in steep decline at this point, I am comfortable (as I've said) with getting whatever assets we can for Luongo in the offseason, getting under the $64m cap next year and onwards and upwards from there.
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby Diehard1 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:47 am

dbr wrote:
Tiger wrote:This team has been in decline since over a year ago..


I've seen people make this claim all over the place lately. Since mid-season last year (let's say the Boston game is where the decline really started) the Canucks have had one trade deadline and one offseason (where everyone knew the cap would be going down and nobody knew.. well anything else about the CBA environment they were heading into) to address the holes we all know are there.

In that time the Canucks have acquired a budding power forward and signed a top four defenseman, not exactly hitting for the cycle so to speak but still addressing a few needs.

I'll agree that it was a gamble heading into the season thinking that Malhotra would get healthy, Kesler would stay healthy and Schroeder would be ready to make an impact in the NHL.. but I don't see very much movement since the end of last year that I wish the Canucks would have been in on.

Mike Ribeiro and Derek Roy are pretty good players but there are UFAs at the end of a season nobody was sure would happen when they were traded - and they both cost quite a bit. If Mike Gillis had given up Jordan Schroeder and a 1st for Ribeiro or two roster players for Roy and the season hadn't even been played that would have been a drastic setback for this organization.

So who else out there has moved? Olli Jokinen at $4.5m a year? After that in free agency you have guys like Torrey Mitchell and Adam freaking Burish making close to $2m a year, we could use those guys right now but on the books next year they hurt more than they help.

I would love for Mike Gillis to have made *some* move to get us another center, preferably one who makes the inevitable loss of Ryan Kesler less painful - but I don't see any moves out there that I'd say would have made sense for the Canucks.

But then I don't really think this team's core players are in steep decline at this point, I am comfortable (as I've said) with getting whatever assets we can for Luongo in the offseason, getting under the $64m cap next year and onwards and upwards from there.


The team isn't in decline, they have just had their fair share of injuries, bad bounces and unsteady play over the past 15 games or so. This season is bizarre for most of the league - Montreal leading the east? Philly clsoe to last in the east? Anaheim one of the best teams in hockey? All very unexpected. I expect Gillis to make a move or two to balance the lines, getting a center and losing a winger (and maybe a goalie), but other than that it's a contending lineup.

On Roy - I would take him for sure, depending on the price. He's a playmaking center which this team does not have. Stick him with Booth and Kassian, or with Raymond and Hansen, and you've got a very good line. Stick Kesler with whichever wingers you want to make up your checking line (I'd choose Hansen and Higgins, but there are cases to be made for others too) and you've got two quality lines after the twins.

I'm not worried about Roy being a rental, if Gillis wants to sign a guy he's never had any issue aside from Ehrhoff, who got a ridiculous 10 year deal from the Sabres.

Gillis is going to have to decide on Higgins and Raymond soon as well, likely before hte deadline, as he's only got so many dollars to play with next year and likely can't sign both. Don't want to lose one of them for nothing, especially when you may be able to bring back a center in return.
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby Topper » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:19 am

Go read what Sabres fans had to say about Roy. No. Small soft and disappears.
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby Potatoe1 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:35 am

Hockey Widow wrote:
Is this a product of coaching or is this a product of players doing the same things over and over hoping for a different result? Maybe both.


For me It's mostly a product of a weaker roster.

The team we saw in 2011, got healthy and productive seasons from it's top offensive players and the rest of the forwards were mostly solid 2-way types.

The 2011 team was just so stable in it's own zone, which allowed them to exit quickly and dominate possession. The power play was lethal and hasn't been the same without Eherhoff. Between that and the offence from Kesler / Twins we were able to build leads, and with Malholtra / Kesler and the lunch bucket forwards we were able to keep them.

While I don't think AV is getting the most out of what he has right now, I also don't think the effort level is the main problem.

Just look what we got from our centre ice position that season.

Hank was a 90 point guy, Kesler was the best 2-way forward in the league, and Manny was perhaps the best shut down guy in the game.

Hank has been fine but Kesler and Manny have been swapped for Ebbett, Schroeder, Lappy, and a number of wingers playing out of position.

Centre ice is the engine of your team, they have by far the most impact on the teams territorial game. If you downgrade the position it will be immediately noticeable.

We had 3 new BMW's down the middle in 2011, now one of them is 2 years older and the other's have been traded for pintos.

Not really the coaches fault.
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:40 am

And the other beamer has a smashed headlight.



have to LOL at everyone's constant whining about the decay of the twins. They are 32 not 37. For comparison Hossa is 34 and Chara is 36. yes and MG has nothing but brutal signings Tiger. Hamhuis and Garrison.... top 2 D man and a top 4. Bums there. Samuelsson, Rome, Torres, Demitra, Sundin all were decent- good signings. Manny would have been an astute signing.
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby Orcasfan » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:14 am

Who knew in July that this "season" was going to start in January and only last 48 games? :look: How do you plan for that as a GM? Plus, once the lockout began, no trades or even talking to players allowed! Talk about being constrained! Plus, back in the summer, Kesler was supposed to recover from his (shoulder) surgery by Oct/Nov. Who knew he was going to need another surgery on his wrist, that delayed his recovery even more? :wow:

If this season was closer to the regular 82 games, experimenting with Schroeder (and Manny) would have made sense...lots of time to do something else if it didn't work out. But, with only this rump season to work with, time is not a luxury they have! I totally agree with the view that this team was put against the wall when their #2 and #3 centers became unavailable. I think if any of the "elite" teams lost those centers, we would see similar struggles. And, seemingly, every bloody team is desperate for a good 3rd C...so, GMMG has his work cut out for him!

This team's core is certainly not in decline! The twins are producing at about their same pace, despite the lack of a hot Burrows and an effective 2nd line! I do think the D will round into shape (please, Edler!), and, if they can get a decent 2nd-3rd C, they should be good for a playoff run! :D
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:04 pm

Diehard1 wrote:Gillis is going to have to decide on Higgins and Raymond soon as well, likely before hte deadline, as he's only got so many dollars to play with next year and likely can't sign both. Don't want to lose one of them for nothing, especially when you may be able to bring back a center in return.


You do realize that upcoming UFA's Raymond and Higgins would be considered rental players on the open market essentially taking them off the lists of any would be trading partners who are considered the Have Nots, going on a fire sale and a few years of rebuilding. Why the fuck would Raymond and Higgins sign with a shite team this off-season? Do you not think these GM's of crap teams who are fire sale'ing understand this? The only teams that would be interested in the likes of Raymond and Higgins are Have teams vying for the Cup this year whom might be short on wingers and fat on centers who could help us. And do me a favor, could you point out who those teams might be who have that kind of depth at centre who could help us who would not mind acquiring UFA rental wingers in Raymond and Higgins?

Also, keep in mind, with trading Raymond or Higgins I guess what you are saying is that maybe Booth could fill the hole left behind them, a real gamble here. So you are basically filling a hole but creating another if Booth still continues to not live up to promise and score goals. You do also realize that Booth cannot play the power play, cannot kill penalties and cannot do shootouts, Raymond and Higgins can do all these.
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby Arachnid » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:13 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
Diehard1 wrote:Gillis is going to have to decide on Higgins and Raymond soon as well, likely before hte deadline, as he's only got so many dollars to play with next year and likely can't sign both. Don't want to lose one of them for nothing, especially when you may be able to bring back a center in return.


You do realize that upcoming UFA's Raymond and Higgins would be considered rental players on the open market essentially taking them off the lists of any would be trading partners who are considered the Have Nots, going on a fire sale and a few years of rebuilding. Why the fuck would Raymond and Higgins sign with a shite team this off-season? Do you not think these GM's of crap teams who are fire sale'ing understand this? The only teams that would be interested in the likes of Raymond and Higgins are Have teams vying for the Cup this year whom might be short on wingers and fat on centers who could help us. And do me a favor, could you point out who those teams might be who have that kind of depth at centre who could help us who would not mind acquiring UFA rental wingers in Raymond and Higgins?

Also, keep in mind, with trading Raymond or Higgins I guess what you are saying is that maybe Booth could fill the hole left behind them, a real gamble here. So you are basically filling a hole but creating another if Booth still continues to not live up to promise and score goals. You do also realize that Booth cannot play the power play, cannot kill penalties and cannot do shootouts, Raymond and Higgins can do all these.


Oh sod off! :evil:

Davey scored a beauty of a goal last night! (coulda been worse...he coulda missed! :rofl: ).
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby RoyalDude » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:21 pm

Arachnid wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:
Diehard1 wrote:Gillis is going to have to decide on Higgins and Raymond soon as well, likely before hte deadline, as he's only got so many dollars to play with next year and likely can't sign both. Don't want to lose one of them for nothing, especially when you may be able to bring back a center in return.


You do realize that upcoming UFA's Raymond and Higgins would be considered rental players on the open market essentially taking them off the lists of any would be trading partners who are considered the Have Nots, going on a fire sale and a few years of rebuilding. Why the fuck would Raymond and Higgins sign with a shite team this off-season? Do you not think these GM's of crap teams who are fire sale'ing understand this? The only teams that would be interested in the likes of Raymond and Higgins are Have teams vying for the Cup this year whom might be short on wingers and fat on centers who could help us. And do me a favor, could you point out who those teams might be who have that kind of depth at centre who could help us who would not mind acquiring UFA rental wingers in Raymond and Higgins?

Also, keep in mind, with trading Raymond or Higgins I guess what you are saying is that maybe Booth could fill the hole left behind them, a real gamble here. So you are basically filling a hole but creating another if Booth still continues to not live up to promise and score goals. You do also realize that Booth cannot play the power play, cannot kill penalties and cannot do shootouts, Raymond and Higgins can do all these.


Oh sod off! :evil:

Davey scored a beauty of a goal last night! (coulda been worse...he coulda missed! :rofl: ).


I know, nice forehand, backhand, roof it goal it was. With 1 goal in 11 games, what's Mr. $4.5 million on pace for?
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby ODB » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:38 pm

Arachnid wrote:
Oh sod off! :evil:

Davey scored a beauty of a goal last night! (coulda been worse...he coulda missed! :rofl: ).


Or so you were told... right. :lol:
BTW, NOT A FLAME ... JUST AN OBSERVATION ... :P
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby Arachnid » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:55 pm

ODB wrote:
Arachnid wrote:
Oh sod off! :evil:

Davey scored a beauty of a goal last night! (coulda been worse...he coulda missed! :rofl: ).


Or so you were told... right. :lol:


Ahhhh geez man, I'm so confused...I don't know if this version of me is on or off the bandwagon....this fucking sucks!

Bring on the playoffs! 8-)
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Re: what has to happen to get the ship on course?

Postby Cornuck » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:06 pm

Arachnid wrote:Ahhhh geez man, I'm so confused...I don't know if this version of me is on or off the bandwagon....


Do you want me to disable your account until the playoffs start? :D
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