Has AV's time come?

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Has AV's time come?

Postby Lancer » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:13 pm

I've seen some conversation on this topic on the last GDT, but figured this is a topic that won't go away depending on how the rest of the season goes so why not give it its own thread.

I'm concerned about the funk this team is in. I've said before (and seen it said elsewhere) that the listless play lately looks a lot like last spring after the Boston win. Feel free to speculate on why that is, but I would offer to coaching-related possible reasons:

1) The players have tuned out the coaching staff. GMMG and AV gave the players the keys to the club-house and the players have let the club-house go to poo. I've heard it said elsewhere that there's a country-club atmosphere in the dressing room among the established players. In that event, I can see a situation when the coaching staff may want to address things, but the leadership in the room could say, 'don't worry - we'll sort it out inside the room'. The inmates have taken over the asylum, but they've run out of answers/energy but also don't want the coaching staff horning in on what they feel is their turf.

2) The coaching staff have run out of ideas. AV and Co. made some great hay with some of their cute set-plays and break-ins and such, but it seems he rest of the conference has figured them out. Look at the PP drop-pass on the break-in - everybody in the league is waiting for it and has designed a way to neutralize it, just like it seems that they've done for the rest of AV's offensive schemes. Yet we haven't seen any changes of strategy from the coaching staff. It's the same old tactics that aren't working anymore and the results are now showing.

If either of these possibilities are true, should GMMG change the coaching staff? If so, when? Now, while there is still half a season to salvage? At the end of the season, when there is time for the new coach and staff to install themselves in the organization and start fresh with a new training camp? Who would be a suitable/better replacement? Depending on who's out there and when they would be available, does that drive when GMMG changes staff?

I'm not declaring either of the above possibilities as true, but given the results lately they would seem plausible. It's also possible that the players and coaches can figure something out or a new strategy that gets them back on a winning track. Maybe it's just the players in a performance-related funk (ie-confidence) out of which they have to pull themselves out.

But given AV's track-record with some of the younger players, the roster roulette on the blue-line, the playoff woes and the evident troubles many new players have in adapting to the team's style of play - it's clear that AV's tenure here is far from unblemished. He's not untouchable.

I say, if the team comes back without a win against Columbus Vigneault should be canned - and Ruff should be seriously considered as a replacement - provided he's still available. What say you guys?
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby vic » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:44 pm

I posted in another thread and I'll post here too...

Yes, AV's time has come and gone. I still say he should have been fired after the 2010 loss to Chicago. Had the team been able to show something in their 2nd consecutive year facing the Hawks then maybe, but they got blown out twice by the same team. The following year they almost lost again to that team after taking a 3-0 lead in the series.

The team lost 4 of their final 5 playoff games that year and duplicated that feat the 1st round the following year bowing out to LA in 5. That's 2 victories in their last 10 playoff games.

Whenever AV is asked about an injured player he always has the same answer - "that player is not on my roster right now and I'm moving forward as if he's not here at all" - after the loss to LA, AV admitted not being prepared as he thought the injured Daniel Sedin was going to be back on the ice in-time to start the playoffs.

When a coach admits to not being prepared for a playoff series after capturing the president's trophy 2 years in a row and making it to the SCF the previous year, something's wrong.

Year after year it's the injuries, travel, refs, starting goalie not performing up to expectations, back up goalie not getting enough starts, no 3rd line center, losing to the better team, blah blah blah blah blah...
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby Waffle » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:56 pm

Lots of articles around about the effect of changing coaches/GMs, like these:

NHL coaching changes don’t always work
http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/P ... story.html

NHL coaching changes come often, and often have successful results
http://articles.philly.com/2013-02-20/s ... ette-first


but the best (and longest) article is here I think:

Debunking The “Proven Winner” Myth In The National Hockey League
http://www.iveybusinessjournal.com/topi ... T5Ad45EzbM
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby Uncle dans leg » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:20 pm

From Twitter:
Farhan Lalji ‏@FarhanLaljiTSN
Given what he's done during tenure I think he gets to finish season. @GeraldFriesen: any rumble about getting av fired?


I agree. Panic in the summer
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby ukcanuck » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:10 pm

Uncle dans leg wrote:From Twitter:
Farhan Lalji ‏@FarhanLaljiTSN
Given what he's done during tenure I think he gets to finish season. @GeraldFriesen: any rumble about getting av fired?


I agree. Panic in the summer

No no no, summer is for golf, panic now....
Well at least light a fire under club dead if nothing else...
Get rid of someone in the untouchable category, make people afraid for their jobs again...
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby BingoTough » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:11 pm

Wasn't there a stat produced after the finals to the tune that no coach with a tenure with their club >6 years had won the cup since 1832?

I'm biased against AV, but I said he should go before they won two consecutive president's trophies. That said, I think he is out-coached and inflexible. He comes across as being obsessively focused on the short term (one game at a time) which might make him a good tactician, but not a great strategist. I would argue a good, long-term coach needs to be both. Personally I think his tactics have worn thin and the team needs a reboot.
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby Larry Goodenough » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:20 pm

You can't suggest a coaching change unless you offer up a replacement at the same time. Replacements will be different mid-season and end of season.
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby Boston Canucker » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:25 pm

On these boards, I made the claim at the end of last season that his time had come then. I like AV, he's done a good job here (two pres trophies and the 7th game of a cup final didn't just happen on their own), but as happens with pretty much every coach at some point it's time to move on to a new voice/approach.

I was really disturbed by the sort of comments/attitude I heard from the Canucks leading up to last year's playoffs. Things like that they were ready for a long playoff run, knowing what it takes for the two month grind etc. Before the LA series even started, I was worried, thinking what they hell are they talking about, long run, they've got a 1st round series to worry about. AV did not have them ready last year, and he admitted he messed up the Daniel situation. This approach of having the players run the room backfired. I wish Gillis had made the move last summer. I don't see Gillis firing AV mid-season, doesn't seem to be his style. But if they don't go on a "long run" this year, I think he's gone. A first round loss, or god help us missing the playoffs (which I don't think will happen) and he has to be toast.

I'm not anti-AV, he's had a real good run here, and after Van he'll get another job pretty quickly I expect, as he should. But I do think it is time to move on...but I'm not expecting it soon.
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby Lancer » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:39 pm

Larry Goodenough wrote:You can't suggest a coaching change unless you offer up a replacement at the same time. Replacements will be different mid-season and end of season.


That may be the big determinant for GMMG - if he wants to change coaches, who does he want as a replacement, and when will that replacement become available? That may take precedence over where the team is at this season and what their chances are come playoffs.

Ruff is available. Don't know for sure if he's the answer, but he would be perhaps the best available either now or at the end of the season. Eakins, Arniel, maybe somebody from the junior ranks?
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby dhabums » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:16 pm

Larry Goodenough wrote:You can't suggest a coaching change unless you offer up a replacement at the same time. Replacements will be different mid-season and end of season.


Bull shit, I do not have the resources to commit to finding a replacement. But seeing as naming a replacement gives people something to mock, hire Ruff.

AV is a great coach when he gets great goaltending. I would be too. Other than that, he is a good coach who's time should have ended before now.
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby Meds » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:00 pm

I will start this by saying I am actually OK with no playoffs this year.....if it means a high draft pick.

Shortened season, if we were to win our first Cup after just a 48 game regular season people would just go around calling it a chicken shit way to win a Cup and it would get tarred with the brushes of many idiots.....bountiful would have a heyday. That being said I personally don't give a shit how they win it. So long as there is a banner in the rafters, that's good enough for me.

The only decision that Gillis has to make is the path he wants to take the team down. Firing Vigneault and replacing him with a guy like Ruff gives the team enough time to take a legitimate shot at the playoffs and maybe even some motivational traction to do something big. It means that going forward the team still has some concerns in the top 6 and will not have a good enough draft position to pick someone that the team can look to be building around 5 years from now.

Keeping Vigneault and firing him in the summer should mean the team carries on as is and you get them on board to throw in the towel and go for a high pick. Gillis then works the phones, blows whoever he has to, and then parcels Louie and our pick up for the 1st overall.....then grab Jonathan Drouin, he's a C/LW, but coach him to excel at the center position.

Vigneault is long passed his expiration date in Vancouver, I have been saying this for years and getting absolutely lit up for it. Now many of the people who called me out on it are suddenly waving the flag and leading the charge to fire AV.

2 or 3 years from now I expect my often ridiculed opinion of Edler will suddenly be commonly held around here. :roll:
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby Strangelove » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:31 pm

Meds wrote:Vigneault is long passed his expiration date in Vancouver, I have been saying this for years and getting absolutely lit up for it. Now many of the people who called me out on it are suddenly waving the flag and leading the charge to fire AV.


I just bumped a thread (poll) from last May in which over half of your fellow Cornerites felt AV's time had come.

But; if you were debating this years ago; perhaps you have been wrong all along about AV's "expiration date". :mex:

Meds wrote:2 or 3 years from now I expect my often ridiculed opinion of Edler will suddenly be commonly held around here. :roll:


Well one can dream. :scowl:
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby Meds » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:54 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Meds wrote:Vigneault is long passed his expiration date in Vancouver, I have been saying this for years and getting absolutely lit up for it. Now many of the people who called me out on it are suddenly waving the flag and leading the charge to fire AV.


I just bumped a thread (poll) from last May in which over half of your fellow Cornerites felt AV's time had come.

But; if you were debating this years ago; perhaps you have been wrong all along about AV's "expiration date". :mex:

Meds wrote:2 or 3 years from now I expect my often ridiculed opinion of Edler will suddenly be commonly held around here. :roll:


Well one can dream. :scowl:


It's too bad we can't dig up the old board. I've been advocating for a new coach since the back-to-back losses to the Hawks. I have said we were as much out-coached as we were beat up by the Bruins since 2011. I called out Vigneault all through the 2011-12 season.
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby Strangelove » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:56 pm

One more time: Perhaps you have been wrong all along about AV's "expiration date". :sly:
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Re: Has AV's time come?

Postby Canuck-One » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:01 pm

I would love to see this team turn it around and go for a run. I doubt it will happen because we only have 1 NHL center. After Hank there is.....Lapierre, who should really only play 4th line minutes with Weise and Sestito as a bash and crash bully line. With Kesler gone and no real 3rd line center, Scotty Bowman couldn't make this team do any better than they are. If Gillis can supply AV with the right people and he still fails then yep fire him but up until that time the weight of expectations has to fall on the GM. It is his job to bring in the parts and that is what we are missing.
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