Canucks News and Notes

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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Meds » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:41 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:Nonsense, think about it. The Canucks don't want Manny any more in the line up. They decide that when Kesler is back Manny is out. So why not waive him and send him down. They still pay his salary either way. But less would count on the cap if they sent him down that keeping him on IR.

Or they could explore trade opportunities and get back a 4-7 round pick. There are teams that need centres that would take him for cheep. If Manny was faced with press box, minors or waiving his NTC I am sure a deal somewhere could have been worked out.

In other words, if this is about making a roster spot the Canucks had plenty of options available to do that other than end a guys career. They gave him the option of retiring and immediately joining the front office in a capacity to be worked out, or, going on IR until July 1st but his playing days in Vancouver are over. If he stays on IR then he will collect his salary and come July 1 if he feels he can play he can test the market.

The absolute fear here was not about his eye but about his ability to protect himself on the ice from what could be a devastating injury because he didn't see it coming.


I thought that a player's salary stopped counting against the cap entirely when the layer was put on LTIR.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:47 pm

Meds wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:Nonsense, think about it. The Canucks don't want Manny any more in the line up. They decide that when Kesler is back Manny is out. So why not waive him and send him down. They still pay his salary either way. But less would count on the cap if they sent him down that keeping him on IR.

Or they could explore trade opportunities and get back a 4-7 round pick. There are teams that need centres that would take him for cheep. If Manny was faced with press box, minors or waiving his NTC I am sure a deal somewhere could have been worked out.

In other words, if this is about making a roster spot the Canucks had plenty of options available to do that other than end a guys career. They gave him the option of retiring and immediately joining the front office in a capacity to be worked out, or, going on IR until July 1st but his playing days in Vancouver are over. If he stays on IR then he will collect his salary and come July 1 if he feels he can play he can test the market.

The absolute fear here was not about his eye but about his ability to protect himself on the ice from what could be a devastating injury because he didn't see it coming.


I thought that a player's salary stopped counting against the cap entirely when the layer was put on LTIR.


Is Manny on LTIR, or just IR? If we're not at the cap, we can't put Manny on LTIR. LTIR is only used to allow a team with long-term injured players to go OVER the cap. As long as we're under the cap, we don't qualify for LTIR.

And if Manny is on IR, we can't waive or demote him. The only bonus is that if we do want to add a player who makes more money in the future, we can go over the Cap by the value of Manny's salary.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Hockey Widow » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:07 pm

Manny is on IR. His cap still counts against the cap. And yes, the option of waiving him is now gone. The Canucks do not save any cap with this move. They do free up a roster spot. If down the road the Canucks need cap room they have the option of then placing him on LTIR.

Again, if this was just about freeing up a roster spot they had more options than ending his career.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Hockey Widow » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:10 pm

Topper wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:The absolute fear here was not about his eye but about his ability to protect himself on the ice from what could be a devastating injury because he didn't see it coming.

and you laughed when I said that yesyerday



Laughed at that, no. It must have been something else or I misunderstood something. It was pretty clear listening to MG his concern was about an on ice injury due to Manny not being able to protect himself as well as he needed to do.

As most fans we watch most games on TV. We don't see the play without the puck often. Apparently there have been too many collisions, close calls on the ice involving Manny and MG feared it was just a matter of time before he got clocked. I just can't see MG fabricating a reason for placing Manny on IR. I am sure he sought advice from the league, his agent and doctors.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:16 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:Apparently there have been too many collisions, close calls on the ice involving Manny and MG feared it was just a matter of time before he got clocked. I just can't see MG fabricating a reason for placing Manny on IR. I am sure he sought advice from the league, his agent and doctors.


TSN was pretty skeptical on the timing of Kesler's return and Manny's placement on IR. To be honest, it does seem a bit fishy to me. Kesler has been cleared to play for about the amount of time Manny has been away from the team.

I would hope management isn't that greasy that they'd ask/tell Manny he's not physically capable solely to get Kesler into the lineup without having to send someone down.

All that being said, I would imagine they'd certainly talk to everyone to make sure the move clears. The last thing we need is the NHL fining the Canucks a draft pick because they artificially cooked the roster.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Uncle dans leg » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:22 pm

Didn't GMMG say he gave MM 10 games to prove he can play? If he were to BS that fact then he knows it would leak out and make him look like a scab, or worse, be grounds for insurance fraud. No way he risks his career to do something that he doesn't even need to do at all.
I think the timing is coincidental.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:41 pm

Uncle dans leg wrote:Didn't GMMG say he gave MM 10 games to prove he can play? If he were to BS that fact then he knows it would leak out and make him look like a scab, or worse, be grounds for insurance fraud. No way he risks his career to do something that he doesn't even need to do at all.
I think the timing is coincidental.


The problem with all of this is, if he's medically cleared to play, how do the Canucks justify putting him on IR? Mike Gillis can hardly say "I'm worried he'll run into people" if Manny's eyesight has been cleared by the doctors. And if he's not medically, why has he been playing this season?

There's a few questions un-answered with this thing...
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Jovocop » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:05 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Uncle dans leg wrote:Didn't GMMG say he gave MM 10 games to prove he can play? If he were to BS that fact then he knows it would leak out and make him look like a scab, or worse, be grounds for insurance fraud. No way he risks his career to do something that he doesn't even need to do at all.
I think the timing is coincidental.


The problem with all of this is, if he's medically cleared to play, how do the Canucks justify putting him on IR? Mike Gillis can hardly say "I'm worried he'll run into people" if Manny's eyesight has been cleared by the doctors. And if he's not medically, why has he been playing this season?

There's a few questions un-answered with this thing...


The league approved that and no other teams have complained so far. What is there to be answered?
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:24 pm

Jovocop wrote:The league approved that and no other teams have complained so far. What is there to be answered?


I would be wondering when Manny aggravated or re-injured himself. If he was medically cleared to play to start the season, that means he's healthy.

If the Canucks had doubts about his safety, why would he be in the lineup at all?
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Aaronp18 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:44 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:If the Canucks had doubts about his safety, why would he be in the lineup at all?


Did you listen to Gillis' presser?

He essentially said the Canucks had concerns about his game and ability to keep himself safe last season. Manny convinced them it was due to the fact that he couldn`t train and get back into 100% game shape because of the short offseason and subsequent follow up surgeries on his eye in the 2011 offseason.

They agreed that they would give him 10 games this season for him to prove he could play in the NHL and keep himself safe on the ice. I heard on 1040 apparently the Canucks have at least 3 separate instances on video of Manny not seeing the opponent at all from his injured eye side, he had no idea they were coming to hit him and fortunately they let up on him.

There`s a big difference between a doctor saying he`s medically cleared to play, and a guy being healthy enough to keep himself safe in an NHL game.

Ryan Kesler was medically cleared to play last season but perhaps the Canucks should have just shut him down earlier. He clearly wasn`t himself and if another injury occurred because he couldn`t protect himself because of a weakened shoulder or wrist who knows what type of damage could be done.

Manny is clearly missing something, and it`s been far worse this year. He looked lost everywhere except on the dot. The possibility does exist that his vision is getting worse but Manny isn`t ready to admit it. So the Canucks took the decision out of his hands.

They did the right thing. He can`t play hockey at the NHL level anymore. And there was a good chance he could have gotten himself hurt even worse out there.

The guy still has the rest of his life to look forward to, why risk that?
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Island Nucklehead » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:37 pm

Aaronp18 wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:If the Canucks had doubts about his safety, why would he be in the lineup at all?


Did you listen to Gillis' presser?


No.

There`s a big difference between a doctor saying he`s medically cleared to play, and a guy being healthy enough to keep himself safe in an NHL game.


That's a speed/timing/diminished ability problem, not a health issue. If Manny had "lost a step" due to knee surgery, but was cleared to play, would he be able to go on IR? Doubtful. Why does Gillis have the right to place a guy on IR because he thinks he's gonna get cranked? Fuck, he's not Manny's mother (although his eyes may be pregnant).

Manny is clearly missing something


Yep. The ability to play NHL hockey.

The guy still has the rest of his life to look forward to, why risk that?


I agree. But that's up to the guy with the contract. How you can be forced onto the IR when you've met all physical/health requirements is beyond me. If Manny wasn't such a team guy I'd be expecting an NHLPA grievance. As it is, it works out for the Canucks.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Hockey Widow » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:49 pm

It wasn't a matter of fear that he would re-injure the eye or it would get worse. One of the problems I have heard was that he gets bouts of vertigo with sudden movement and quick turns. It was hoped that that would improve with time and training but it didn't. The major issue was his limited vision and loss of peripheral vision was affecting his ability to pick up players. There was hope that he could "re-train" himself to some extent to compensate for that. The team felt he had not shown enough improvement in his over all game to take further risks.

And any GM has the right, the duty, to shut a player down if in their estimation they cannot play safely. No way, no how, does MG do this unless he is convinced that Manny has recovered as much as he is going to and unless MG strongly felt he was a danger to himself out there. It is MG's duty to protect his players in situations like this. Manny may feel he was fine or could get better and so be it. Come July 1 he is UFA and if he feels he can play then he can land a PTO contract somewhere and give it a go.

If Manny was still healthy enough to play do you not think MG could have gotten a measly 7th rounder for him? Some asset back? The timing may coincide with the Kesle'sr return and perhaps it had something to do with the why now. Why not in a week or another month. To me it sounded like it was an inevitable decision and with them needing a roster spot it makes perfect sense.

If MG is lying about this do you really think Manny's agent would be so silent?
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby dbr » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:44 am

To me the timing of the IR move has to be related to Ryan Kesler's return. The team needed a roster spot so they took one away from the guy who should not be playing in the NHL.

That being said Manny was pulled from the lineup a few games back and I'd wager the Canucks had already seen enough by then.
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby Aaronp18 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:46 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:I agree. But that's up to the guy with the contract. How you can be forced onto the IR when you've met all physical/health requirements is beyond me. If Manny wasn't such a team guy I'd be expecting an NHLPA grievance. As it is, it works out for the Canucks.


Manny won't file a grievance because in the end he chose this route. If he didn't agree to the IR he gets waived, the Canucks have every right to to that. He's not going to go play in the AHL, this is a far better option for him and his family.

The Canucks had several different options in order to get Kesler back on the roster, I would assume ending the career one of the best individuals to play for this team wasn't at the top of their list.

And it's not just up to Manny, it's also up to the Canucks and Mike Gillis to ensure they are protecting their players to the best of their ability, like any employer. In this case that is to shut down Manny and put him on the IR.

In the long run I think Manny and his family will appreciate the approach the Canucks took as he watches his new born baby grow up!
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Re: Canucks News and Notes

Postby SKYO » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:14 am

dbr wrote:That being said Manny was pulled from the lineup a few games back and I'd wager the Canucks had already seen enough by then.


Agreed, The Canucks could have easily just bought him out this offseason, it sounded like they gave Manny a chance, to be nice to let him play, but knowing full well that eventually they would have to pull him from the team.

I don't know if management wanted to put Manny on waivers to send him down to the AHL if they think his eyesight is really that bad, or they just came to a mutual agreement to just take the rest of the season off.

Anyways with all these conspiracies, I foresee Manny testing UFA waters to see if there are any takers, if not the Canucks will in all likelyhood give him a office or assistant coaching job in the AHL next season.
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