So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby ukcanuck » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:32 pm

Nuckertuzzi wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:UK not sure why you want to rail against the Luongo haters here. For the most part the people on this board like and appreciate Roberto despite the fact he has coiled the sheets massively in some very big games. I still maintain he's a top end goalie, best one this team has ever had and a funny dude to boot. He wants out, his wife wants him out and he will be traded. Your anger should be directed at the open line shows that allow every retard in town to phone and give the whole city a bad name. I swear nobody with an IQ over 100 is allowed to get on the air at 1040.



Very well said, Blob.

I am definitely a critic, and won't apologize for that, but I'm also definitely NOT a hater. A hater will never acknowledge the good things he's done. I've always respected him and you will never get an argument from me when we talk about him as one of the best regular season goalies in the League and best we've ever had. I, all of us, have to appreciate the fact we would not have enjoyed all the regular season success we've had the past half-dozen years culminating in two Presidents Trophies without him.

Unfortunately though it's the playoff warts that stand out. For sure there's a lot of blame to go around for that but fact of the matter is one of the biggest reasons this team hasn't enjoyed as much playoff success as it should have is because of his untimely meltdowns, something that's happened far too often to be considered a blip. I'm a firm believer that it's one of the biggest reasons this group hasn't won a Cup, despite him help getting close one year.

Given the situation right now, his age, contract status, and said playoff failures, it makes the most sense to give another younger and cheaper guy, who might be just as good albeit a bit of a wildcard, the opportunity to do what Lu couldn't. If he fails, so what, Lu couldn't do it either and I've reached a point where I'd rather take that chance than have history likely repeating itself over and over again. I think it's time and so does he.

That said, I do marvel at the tremendous professionalism and performance that Lu is gloriously putting on display right now. It's really tremendous to see and affirms what I wrote earlier in this thread about possibly holding on to him for the remainder of the year as insurance policy.


I agree in principle with both Blob and you and I know he's had his issues, but he's had some serious help in those meltdowns and I think before his career is over he likely will be hoisting The Cup at some point and if its not in a Canucks uniform there is going to be some gnashing of teeth and ripping of clothes...maybe not on our board but I can think of a few smug pricks out there...
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby dangler » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:35 pm

Potatoe1 wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote: Even fully healthy this team has a gaping hole in the middle and could use with a winger or two swapped out in the top 9.



Not sure I agree Blob.

If Kassians emergence is for real a lot of things change in the top 9. I don't see anyone in the wing positions that needs to be upgraded (though more is always better).

The only soft spot is Lappy as the 3rd line center, but it seems Burrows and Schroder can help out in that area. Further to that veteran checking centers generally come fairly cheap at the deadline.

That said I still think Lu should be moved, but IMO we should be looking for the best young assets we can get back. I'm not terribly bothered if said assets are able to impact the roster this year.


I'm more concerned about manny than lappy, and he could be tougher to replace,I don't know if Schroder can do whats needed on the 4th line.
Burrows could ,but his mission this season needs to be a sparkplug for that 2nd line (if Kassian keeps it going).
Any trade has to have a back-up goaltender coming back or the Gillis has to have a 3-way deal waiting in the weeds.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby Hockey Widow » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:57 pm

Mike_Gillis_with_Sekeres_and_Price_Jan31st

MG today on 1040.

Interesting that he let it slip that Luongo did ask him to see if he could trade him. I don't think he meant to let that one out and it certainly contradicts what I have been told. So did Luongo ask for a trade or did he ask MG to have a look see and maybe end up getting traded Is there a difference.

As to why Luongo is staring against Chicago it is simply playing the goalie that gives you the best chance to win. Sounds like it is more Luongo is better in a starter role than a back up role.

I get the sense that the trades MG has been offered thus far are trades that will still be available in the off season, or are the type of trades that will still be available, in any event. So any trade now would not be enough to address sufficiently the other issues on the team and would not be enough to compensate for the loss of strength in net, i.e., having two number one's to rely upon in a shortened season.

So maybe you pick up a 3rd line centre or one who can spot on the 2nd line but you lose the advantage in net. Is that the move that gives us a better shot at a cup? So my read is that unless it is a hockey trade that makes us, overall, a better team, Luongo will not be dealt until the off season. In the off season MG has a chance to fix any other holes, via trade or FA, buy outs , etc. He doesn't have that opportunity right now. Other teams would also have an opportunity to address any hole they have that may occur by trading for Luongo.

So I think that whatever we get for Luongo will not be less than what we could get now and maybe more in the off season. So again, barring a big return right now I doubt he gets moved. Maybe all we really get are a prospect and or pick and a roster player of bottom 9, not top 6. Maybe thats the reality. And if that is the case does it make us better this shortened season? I think not. I doubt this is a problem in the Canucks dressing room so I doubt the distraction BS. In fact I think the opposite. I think the players are going to be more committed to winning for Luongo now, knowing it may be his last year here. Another aspect is that Luongo may not be inclined to waive his NTC mid season and from my take on MG's interview he will not trade Cory.

So if we all have to temper our expectations about a return for Luongo, and it certainly is looking like we may have to, then I'd rather it be in the off season when we will have to re-tool anyway due to cap considerations. We will be dealing with a number of forwards turning FA as well and we should have a better sense of Kesler's health, Booth's ability, or lack thereof, to fit as a top 6 and Ballard's worth and value moving forward. So maybe, just maybe, letting Luongo keep the number one while he is still here is the best decision. Cory will be fine, he is a pro and he will handle the situation like a pro.

Liked how MG said Luongo is enjoying the about face and all the love and respect he is being shown around the league because of this. Finally getting recognized outside of Vancouver for the good goalie he is. Its like he is the poor much maligned, under appreciated, mistreated goalie who has now become the under dog everyone is cheering for.
Last edited by Hockey Widow on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby Nuckertuzzi » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:01 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:I would like to see a third line centre with a bit more of an offensive upside than Lapierre. Even if both 17 and 33 are healthy heading into the playoffs this team has had trouble scoring goals at times over the last two seasons in the playoffs.



Another excellent post. The problem I see with these lineup possibilities is that we're simply looking to fill holes with some pretty non-impactful moves. If we want a Cup we need to swing for the fences. Maybe giving someone else a try in goal might just do it but I agree with your assessment that we lack the scoring depth to be a Cup winner. Hopefully Kassian's emergence isn't a mirage but whether it is or not we can't count on his upgrade alone. We know we can't rely on Higgins, Booth and Raymond to provide the scoring punch either. I won't declare it yet but the Sedins could be on a bit of a decline while Kesler's effectiveness is way too unpredictable. If we are going to make the Luongo trade, we can't approach it with a desire to address simple needs. Bozak fills a need, Gunnarsson fills a need..they may help solidify the roster with depth but do they really change things? I'd rather take a chance on unproven prospect(s) as there's a bit of a wildcard, x-factor there. That has a better chance at getting the group over the hump than then a couple of fill-ins. I hope Gillis is approaching it the same way...pretty sure he is.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby Nuckertuzzi » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:11 pm

ukcanuck wrote:I agree in principle with both Blob and you and I know he's had his issues, but he's had some serious help in those meltdowns and I think before his career is over he likely will be hoisting The Cup at some point and if its not in a Canucks uniform there is going to be some gnashing of teeth and ripping of clothes...



Very possibly. Again, as much as he's failed in the playoffs here that doesn't mean he'll do it elsewhere and I hate the idea of him out there possibly burning us. But fact is he couldn't get it done here. He may eventually get over the hump here but he's had six years, five opportunities and failed miserably in most of them. There's gotta be a time. If we didn't have another capable goalie who deserves a shot to do what he couldn't then I wouldn't have any issues in continuing to give Lu more opportunities.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby wafflecombine » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:41 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:Mike_Gillis_with_Sekeres_and_Price_Jan31st
Liked how MG said Luongo is enjoying the about face and all the love and respect he is being shown around the league because of this. Finally getting recognized outside of Vancouver for the good goalie he is. Its like he is the poor much maligned, under appreciated, mistreated goalie who has now become the under dog everyone is cheering for.


I really love the irony of this statement. All across the boards all we heard was Lou is washed up, OMG Lou is awful, we'll be lucky to get a bag of pucks and a McHappy meal for him in a trade and that Cory was the second coming of "name elite past NHL goalie". Truth is even with a shakey start to the season Cory is gonna be solid and will be great in the future. Truth is Lou is solid and will be great in the future (maybe just not with us "eventually"). Our D is still gelling into the unit it should be, our offense is still pretty one dimensional (but getting better) and our special teams are still finding their feet (better be soon). I am glad we have both men in the stable ready to do battle for us.

I am pumped to see Lou playing great and getting Lou'd. I am super pumped to see Cory pitch a goose egg the next time he starts.

Now if Kesler would just get back... I bet he gets a massive cheer from the crowd first game back.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby Meds » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:00 pm

The filling a current need is a bad way for MG to go.....and I think he knows it.

There is no point in getting someone who fills a need at a roster spot and then won't really fit with the team once Kesler and Booth are back in the lineup. This is especially true if the piece being shipped up has Luongo's value.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby Topper » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:19 pm

There are two 1st line centres and two fourth line centres. With one of the top injured, there is a gaping hole, The team needs someone who can play solid third line centre and sub at 2nd line if needed.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby herb » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:34 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote: Even fully healthy this team has a gaping hole in the middle and could use with a winger or two swapped out in the top 9.


I don't agree Blob.

If we are ever healthy, on paper this team is better than the team in 2011. That might be a big if, or it might be a little if, who knows, but a healthy forward group looks like:

Sedin/Sedin/Kassian
Booth/Kesler/Higgins
Hansen/Schroeder/Burrows
Malhotra/Lapierre/Weise

Volpatti/Ebbett

Edit: Raymond

That is a damn good group. Are there areas that could conceivably be upgraded? Absolutely, there always will be, but where are those areas? Maybe 3rd line centre and 4th line winger, although I personally want to see Schroeder play until the trade deadline. The kid has looked good IMO, and I'd love to see what he could do with Burrows (would be a puss line, but whatever).

Along with Raymond, Kassian, Ballard and Tanev, Schroeder has been one of the pleasant surprises early this season.
Last edited by herb on Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby Aaronp18 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:46 pm

herb wrote:Sedin/Sedin/Kassian
Booth/Kesler/Higgins
Hansen/Schroeder/Burrows
Malhotra/Lapierre/Weise

Volpatti/Ebbett


If there's no moves you;re missing Raymond.

Sedin/Sedin/Kassian
Booth/Kesler/Burrows
Raymond/Schroeder/Higgins
Malhotra/Lapierre/Hansen
Weise
Volpatti

I like that lineup even better. Burrows and Kesler have played well together before and Burrows can help distribute the puck a bit on that line. Higgins adds some spade work and a little grit to that line. Plus they are all defensively responsible and that third line will see the third defensive parings for sure.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby herb » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:58 pm

Aaronp18 wrote:If there's no moves you;re missing Raymond.

Sedin/Sedin/Kassian
Booth/Kesler/Burrows
Raymond/Schroeder/Higgins
Malhotra/Lapierre/Hansen
Weise
Volpatti


Oh shit you're right. So many forwards I missed one!

Lots and lots of versatility with that forward group.

The way I look at it, you give Schroeder a long look. There's no rush to make a decision either way. So far he has lots of room for improvement, but he has not been a liability, has generally pushed the play up ice and his line has generated scoring chances. He could have easily scored a goal or two by now.

Over the next few weeks maybe he progresses, maybe he regresses or maybe he stays about the same. If after 25-30 games there's an opportunity to upgrade, then you do it, but at this point there's no need to rush.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby ESQ » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:59 pm

wafflecombine wrote:
I am pumped to see Lou playing great and getting Lou'd. I am super pumped to see Cory pitch a goose egg the next time he starts.


Yep, that's what I would like to see.

The most terrifying thing I read was Cory admitting he had a full-on panic attack in his first playoff game - a game the Canucks weren't even facing elimination. I didn't think he was ready to be a full-time, 70 game starter (which is what he would be if Luongo is replaced with a normal backup), and I think that even less after reading that. HAVING SAID THAT, I think he's going to excel with less pressure on him and I wouldn't have a problem with him getting 22-24 starts. I think that kind of workload at this point will be beneficial to Schneider.

Normally I think Luongo plays better when he's getting tons of starts, but one of the benefits of the condensed schedule (and possibly some evolution of Luongo as a player) is that he can stay in rhythm while only playing 50% of the starts.

I wasn't surprised that he started the last 2 games because I suspect there's a bit of a Hodgson effect happening - giving Luongo the "easy starts" to boost his stats (LA being off to an atrocious and offense-starved start, Colorado being an awful team). I am surprised about tonight though, but the reasoning behind it is sound.

So really, keeping both is the best of all worlds - Schneider continues to grow into starter pressure, Luongo continues to be an awesome goale, Luongo's trade value improves through better stats.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby herb » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:07 pm

ESQ wrote:So really, keeping both is the best of all worlds.


No rush to trade either player at this point.

As discussed above, the only potential holes in this lineup are at 3C and on the 4th line. Luongo sure as hell better not be traded for a 3C or 4th line winger, and I doubt he could be traded for a top line winger that could really put the team over the edge.

GMMG's game plan in regards to Luongo should be acquiring the next Zack Kassian for the organization. I don't necessarily mean the same style of player, but another 19-21 y/o big bodied forward that will help carry this team through the inevitable Sedin decline and into the next 'era' of Canuckdom. You can throw around a whole bunch of names, but from my perspective somebody like a Nick Bjugstad, for instance.
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby darren » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:52 pm

Nuckertuzzi wrote: He may eventually get over the hump here but he's had six years, five opportunities and failed miserably in most of them.


I'd point out that in every one of those "miserable failures", there have been two teams on the ice, and in every case but one*, that other team has gone on to win the Stanley Cup that year.

I know this horse has been beaten to death, but when you score 8 goals in 7 games, that's a miserable failure alright, but not by your goaltending. (even when Lou was getting shutouts we were only scoring 1 goal, so I have no time for the "lou sucked so bad that he made the team suck" argument). To win the cup, you have to be good, and you have to be lucky with injuries. That's just how it is. The Bruins were a lot luckier with injuries than we were in 2011 and they won. The 2012 Kings were a lot better team on the ice than they were on paper, and they were damn lucky with injuries all the way through, and they won. The 2010 Hawks were simply better and deeper than we were, as were the 2007 Ducks.

*(I think that 2009 against the Hawks is the one time that I would really hang it on Lou... the rest of the time we got beat by a better/healthier team).
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Re: So, who would you like in a return for Luongo

Postby Hockey Widow » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:00 pm

The main criticism last year surrounding the CoHo trade was not so much the player they got back but was the timing of the deal. Most felt, and rightly so, that we were stronger going into the playoffs with CoHo. But long term the deal made sense, it just would have made more sense done in the off season.

It was an example of a hockey trade but one that did not make us a better team at the time. So far this year it makes us look like a better team. So far...

I see a Luongo move in the same fashion. If we assume that the reported Bozack, Kadri and a cap dump, with term, were the offer for Luongo the question is, would that move make us strong this year and going into the playoffs. The short answer is that Bozack would be a great addition until Kesler gets back. Kadri, we have players like him and a salary dump would not help us out. So would the addition of Bozack make us significantly better than we are with two starting goaltenders, both of whom give us a chance to win every night? Isn't Bozack soon to be UFA anyway? And if it is a cap dump with term doesn't that risk taking away one of our buy outs and putting us in a cap crunch in the off season?

I think it is safe to assume that MG has not been offered a true top six that would significantly help us or he probably would have pulled the trigger. I think he has a deal he could take if he felt it would help us but I think he is reluctant because said deal would not make us a significantly better club this year.

So back to the CoHo comparison, if the deal won't make us better this year then why make it now? Those types of deals will be there in the summer. A stop gap until kesler returns isn't in the team's best interest ala Weiss, who is also UFA next year. If we could land a true top six centre which would allow Kesler and Burrows to drop down to the third line then by all means do the deal now. The fact that a deal hasn't been done now tells me the offered return is something we can wait on until the off season. Do the offers get better in the summer? Who knows. I can argue both ways on that one.

Now a top six centre who is UFA with other pieces would be a good move. But again, if it hasn't been done then I doubt is has been offered.

I just know that if we are going to get prospects or pick for Luongo, both of which are good moving forward, then I want them when the season is over, not now. You don't trade a player like Luongo now for plugs.

The one argument for moving now that I find valid is that if we don't get another centre and Kesler is out much longer we may find ourselves outside of the playoffs. If we don't take the division we will be fighting for a spot in the dance.
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